Nearly every cast is empowered is different from every cast, that’s the root of the argument here. The top Survival Hunter on WarcraftLogs had 119/156 casts empowered for about 75% on his Sikran kill.
Between flanking giving 2 charges and coordinated either instantly giving 3 stacks on a 1min CD or making kill command grant 2 stacks it’s not hard to do. But people are acting like you HAVE to empower every cast or it’s going to ruin your dps which isn’t true. If you’re playing the spec correctly Tip will have an organic flow you’re not forcing it
yes? i never implied otherwise. i genuinely don’t know what you think i’m arguing
other than that, what asynic said. the guide definitely does not say “if you’re not tipping every big-hitter then you’re doing something wrong.” it says we aim to tip all our big-hitters–as in we do it wherever possible while maintaining our other priorities (resource and cooldown management). it’s not the number one priority
Can we just have a look at the unnecessary bloat and design friction ?
I am mostly a Monk player, so I know what bloat means and what result can be achieved when looking into it carefully. There is already after playing this version of SV for about 5 levels frictions in term of design that are so apparent (I was main hunt from 2004 to 2012 and since then play SV as an alt to my Monk), I do not understand how this could go live…
Here are a couple of things :
Mangoose Bite : there is currently no pay off to it, even after investing the 2 talent points, the additional chance of reset for Kill Command just results in bloat and more friction into the rotation. Back when it was designed in Legion, there was a real purpose to it : building to an amazing Fury of the Eagle. Since this is gone, having Mangoose or not just feels like a flavour choice that has litterally no positive impact or synergy with the rest of the spec. If you are so inclined to keep it, have it as a choice node alongside another talent affecting Raptor Strike, and only as a 1 point wonder.
Wildfire Bomb and Explosive Shot : they both serve the same purpose and are just a flavour change of the exact same thing. Just get rid of Wildfire Bomb, as without the different infusions we had from BFA to SL, it just became a glorified Explosive Shot with a dot and a positioning requirement. Since then we also lost the extended range to our melee attacks (in favor of Paladins for whatever reasons), which makes it even more of a chore to position yourself correctly. Do away with the Bomb and only keep Explosive Shot, which is anyway an iconic spell from SV since BC. Just have all Wildfire Bomb talents work with Explosive Shot instead. Let the explosion apply the dot (only for SV) and figure out the tuning, so it does not get out of hand. You can even give it the Elemental Blast treatment of having it available in both the class and spec trees, which just gives 2 charges by taking both nodes.
Merciless Blows and Contagious Reagents : why having this on two seperate nodes ? Just remove entirely Contagious Reagents, Merciless Blows already take care of spreading the dot around. It would then also encourage to weave in Butchery as soon as you start cleaving. Or again, if it is here to stay, have them as a choice node.
Leader of the Pack : Just rework it entirely for both SV and BM. Make it feel impactful visually and gameplay wise. There is no reason someone would notice a Scale Commander Evoker while not seeing anything meaningful for a Leader of the Pack. Folks should notice you pop beasts left and right that help you fight. Conduit of the Celestials for the Monk is another very good example, how is it that I see more spirits on my Windwalker Monk than pets on my SV Leader of the Pack Hunter ? First step : transform Beast of Opportunity into something similar to Dire Command and proc of Kill Command, I used to “exploit” that azerite trait in BFA on my SV and it was fun and useful by giving the 5% haste. That exact talent can remain on the BM tree, by giving other advantages.
I will leave it for now, as the list could probably go on and on…
Please don’t mind the low level my main account is in Europe.
Ok, but with these abilities in particular during SL a lot of the anti-melee crowd was like “bombs just replaces explosive shot” and the pro melee crowd was like “bombs are cooler” so it’s almost like they made this lame compromise like “both? Both. Both is good.” And it’s kinda not.
Granted, for the people that just enjoy figuring out the puzzle of how to maximize damage with the tools given, the spec works. But I personally feel like it was more intuitive during SL. And that intuitiveness helped me play it in the content I prefer, which is admittedly not the top tier of either pvp or PvE but very pug friendly content that I can either queue for or join a group for very easily in my limited time.
In addition, I didn’t even realize the reduced melee range was a thing but now that it’s been brought up, that definitely part of the irritation for me. If I have to be right on the mobs I can’t move around as much as I used to. That certainly makes me feel like people who didn’t play SV during SL when they would complain about the inferiority of MSV on principle.
I would agree with you if it was not at the cost of 2 talent points that will make you lose damage elsewhere. You are better off not taking it right now.
I think you lost the part where both spells are aoe range/spells that share a similar fantasy and just compete for doing the same thing. There is 0 reason for both to exist. The only reason for the bombs to exist was the argument that SV was a melee spec and should not have access to regular long range skills. Just have a better look at the tree and replace anywhere it says Wildfire Bomb with Explosive Shot, it all still makes sense while removing one button and keeping the rotation cleaner. You can also replace Explosive Shot with Wildfire Bomb, all the same.
Also design wise, it currently means that you have to pick a specific talent in the class tree in order to make some talents in the spec tree work at all. This is purely and simply bad design and therefore should never be a possiblity to take talent without having all the requirements to activate them as predecessor in the same tree.
can I ask what you feel is not intuitive right now?
In AoE, yes. You can definitely take it in ST. MB has never been an AoE talent
I think you’re wildly over thinking this. This is a thing for every spec in the game. Fireball and Pyroblast are both fire type cast spells.
WFB is a low cooldown ability, cone based AoE that does upfront/dot damage. ES is a longer cooldown ability with no dot damage and radial damage. the only similarity is they’re both ranged and do fire damage.
That’s not a payoff. A payoff would be a skill that consumes the stacks or is accessible only at max stacks. SV does not have that, so it feels like you’re just spamming one button. Even specs like fire mages have something that results from spamming Fireball (crits for instant pyroblasts), but SV doesn’t even have that.
fote was very weak in legion and really only existed to extend your mongoose fury windows
It still felt good to have in part because it interacted with Mongoose Fury.
He’s not wrong, though. Explosive Shot is redundant when SV already has Wildfire Bomb. I’d toss explosive shot in the bin and keep Wildfire Bomb; maybe change WFB into an actual AoE instead of frontal cone, while we’re at it.
Explosive Shot should be part of a 4th hunter spec based on old ranged SV instead of being shoehorned into the hunter class as is.
Damage is clearly a pay off. Properly managing your MF to get optimal amount of strong bites without starving your Focus is a pay off. Optimally weaving in Tip stacks is a pay off.
Your entire premise is somehow ignoring resource management as a pay-off. I don’t think that’s very honest.
Sure, but only as an extender. We don’t need to lie and say it did great damage with MF.
How is it redundant? Is Bloodthirst not redundant with Raging Blow? Is Judgment not redundant with Crusader Strike? Is Cobra Shot not redundant with Kill Command?
I do not think abilities that have seemingly similar functions are redundant. they provide nice variety in a gameplay loop. the game would be very boring if anything seemingly redundant on the specs in the game got pruned.
The feedback from bigger numbers on your damage meter is paltry compared to something seen through gameplay. By your logic, Crusader Strike should just automatically consume 3 holy power and do more damage when you accumulate 3 holy power instead of allowing you to use Templar’s Verdict. If that were the case, it would feel just as crummy from a gameplay standpoint as SV with Mongoose Bite spam.
No, because their functionality differs. Crusader Strike doesn’t increase the target’s damage taken, while Judgement does. Crusader Strike can’t be used from range, while Judgement can.
The same can’t really be said for Explosive Shot and Wildfire Bomb. Sure, Explosive Shot has the delay while WFB is a damage cone with a DoT, but there’s not enough distinction in function to warrant having the two. It’d be one thing if WFB was purely for single-target and Explosive Shot was purely for AoE. I might even support some interaction between the two (Explosive Shot renewing the DoT from Wildfire Bomb?) as a reason to have both, or even something as simple as “Explosive Shot is for damage, WFB is to debuff the enemy in some way”. Even if that would muddy the water for SV even more than it already is (because you’re adding yet another ranged skill on what was supposed to be hunter’s melee spec).
Beyond the above, I will say I’m still not a fan of Tip of the Spear. It still doesn’t make sense to me because it still feels like it’s at odds with Mongoose Fury. It’d be a different story if MF didn’t exist, since you could then pass TotS off as a pseudo-combo system.
But it is a gameplay pay off? you’re managing your resources in a satisfying way to do even more damage than other players. it is a satisfying game play loop and nice skill expression. you don’t need a shiny button to light up when you build up 5 points of macguffin to be a satisfying pay off. that’s very limited game design.
But it easily could? There’s nothing stopping them moving the dmg taken to CS since they’re so redundant. both are mostly single target, holy power builders. one is used more frequently, one has a dmg shred effect. they could very easily be combined together.
I disagree entirely.
WFB’s lower damage lets it have a lower cooldown and two charges, which gives you much more frequent usage of the ability. the primary target modifier lets it actually shine in single target. the DoT gives it wealth of interaction opportunities.
ES’ higher damage necessitates a longer cooldown which in turn (much like flanking strike) promotes resource management as a (get this) satisfying gameplay loop and pay-off moment. you are rewarded by managing your resources (focus+tip) to further empower your hard hitting abilities.
not even to mention, having the two be separate/distinct lets them design interactions between the two. grenade juggler is satisfying when it procs. ES giving WFB CDR is satisfying. kill command and auto attacks giving WFB and CDR is nice. mechanics like these promote proper gameplay (building focus + being in melee range). moving this CDR to ES wouldn’t feel as satisfying as it ahs double the cooldown.
in summary, combining the two gives little to no benefit while greatly constricting the design space.
Can you elaborate? I do not feel it being at odds at all.
It’s currently a major victim of the horrible talent system they went to after Shadowlands.
In Shadowlands, we were streamlined with both decent single target and great aoe, and that version of the talent system allowed us to pick a few different abilities to just flesh things out a little.
Now we have this awful system of either going all in on AOE or some sort of single target/cleave build.
The new concept of playing around Tip of the Spear is absolutely the worst part. It added a ton of completely unneeded complexity to the rotation.
It’s very funny to see this because SV loses the least AoE in ST / vice versa with the other hunter specs. You really have no idea what you’re talking about.
The spec NEEDED a gameplay mechanic. Tip is not complex at all.
It didn’t need anything. It played awesome in SL. It pumped the best AoE in mythics and it was the top pvp hunter spec most of the expansion. It was simple and enjoyable. It was a blast. What they needed to do was stop changing it and let people get comfortable for a few expansions.
The play style isn’t working for me, whereas it used to work for me pretty easily. I intuitively understood what to do with my SV hunters and now I don’t. That’s what I feel is not intuitive.
Yeah. But that “boring” gameplay loop is A. Characteristic of the genre and B. Easy to riff off of in PvP. The more complex it is, the harder it is to do right when you have a dynamic target like other players.
And it wasn’t just the tier set. While I didn’t love the idea of making certain abilities tied to covenant instead of class, there were really interesting choices there. Some might argue that there weren’t because of the night fae one being numerically best for m+ and the kyrian one being numerically best for pvp but I preferred necrolord and lots of people liked Venthyr so they were clearly close enough in numbers that you didn’t have to, yet distinct enough that it mattered enough to choose what you liked best in spite of the numbers.