Survival must be melee

[Lazyguide-area-52 (Lazyguide)]

@Bolvarded-sargeras

Outcry means nothing unfortunately - literally nothing.

Gonna hard disagree chief. When there’s enough outcry, Blizz has a history of changing things.

@Bolvarded-sargeras

And look, I appreciate the stats, but they just as much prove that MM was extremely well-tuned and the most competitive of the 3 for SL causing the population shift.

Current SV has been wildly unpopular, even when it has been the best performing spec.

I don’t want SV to be removed or drastically changed like old SV was. But the current iteration doesn’t seem like it’s made for hunter players in mind. It’s not fun and it took away something tons of people loved.

The biggest reason in my mind to bring back an updated SV (give it a new name to fit the arcane archer / munitions expert themes) is the precedent set currently with MSV. Current precedent is, Blizzard can and will outright remove a spec if they decide they want to go forward with it for whatever reason. It doesn’t matter if they think it will be popular or not (by Ion’s own admission, they knew SV was going to be an unpopular niche spec). The very same thing can happen to MSV or any number of other long established specs.

That’s not a good precedent to have. Blizz should acknowledge that how they implemented the current version of SV was a mistake, and the best way to go about that is to bring back an updated version of old SV as a 4th spec. There’s merit behind wanting to fight up close and personal with your pet thematically, but the way they went about it will always leave current SV in the shadow of old SV until they rectify the situation.

@Viskers-malygos

Edit: also drop the elitist attitude about MM being for casuals. It really doesn’t help your arguments in anyway.

Also this, it makes it incredibly difficult to take you seriously if you’re going to be also talking down on the other specs.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Bolvarded-sargeras

And look, I appreciate the stats, but they just as much prove that MM was extremely well-tuned and the most competitive of the 3 for SL causing the population shift. How many locks still main demo? How many mages main Arcane? How many Mut rogues rerolled Sub? (almost all of them!) Is it solely because one spec is worse/less popular? God no. Fire Mage bangs. Aff and Destro are much more forgiving. And MM (although it’s been tuned down somewhat, but early SL at least) may be the easiest and cheesiest spec to master in SL, especially for casuals.

lol, BM is literally sitting on the bottom as the worst dps spec right now and it still has more than 1/3rd of the hunter player base, but yeah, just keep on with that delusion that survival isn’t popular right now because MM is just better than it number wise.

But let’s look at warlocks just for the hell of it.

381,751 Warlocks

Kyrian 66,608

Destro 37,213
Afflic 25,601
Demo 3,794

Necrolord 72,677

Destro 38,909
Afflic 11,367
Demo 22,401

Night Fae 203,998

Destro 48,460
Afflic 134,391
Demo 21,147

Venthyr 38,468

Destro 18,426
Afflic 12,798
Demo 7,244

Destro 143,008
Afflic 184,157
Demo 54,586

37.46% of locks are Destro
48.24% of locks are Afflic
14.3% of locks are Demo

Almost 4 times as many people percentage wise play Demo compared to survival, when comparing class populations.

Demos make up .89% of the total population. That’s more than twice as many survival hunters.

@Bolvarded-sargeras

(hence Exploding Shot, Chimera, Double Tap, Lock n Load, Black Arrow at one point, etc)

You do realize Chimera was an MM talent 1st right? And that RSV never had it. Also yes, they tried to push RSV into MM in Legion. They ended up with the worst version of MM they ever had. That is why MM now plays closer to the way it did in Vanilla than RSV ever played to MM.

Also Double Tap was added in BFA, so it was never something RSV had. You talk about MM being the easiest and the cheesiest, yet you don’t even know what you’re talking about when it comes to the spec.

They removed Black Arrow with the MM rework going into BFA and as far as explosive shot goes, it doesn’t interact with the rest of MM’s kit at all, let a lone the way it did for RSV. Even when Black Arrow was part of MM, it still didn’t interact with anything MM had, or even black arrow.

[Bolvarded-sargeras]

@Viskers-malygos

The problem is it isn’t fun though. I gave it a chance when it came out in legion and by God was it so anti hunter that I dropped it like a sack of flaming potatoes. And that was when it was overtuned.

A lot of people don’t find find it fun thats why it has the smallest pop in game atm. Even BM which is at the bottom of dps charts still has a ton of players because people legit find that fun.

Stop trying to project onto the rest of the playerbase and say others enjoy it. A lot of people really don’t.

Edit: also drop the elitist attitude about MM being for casuals. It really doesn’t help your arguments in anyway.

See I find a lot of the people who find it very fun weren’t traditional hunter mains before its release. MSV seems to cater to a different crowd which I feel is a big part of why long-time hunters are upset - the alienation. It doesn’t make the spec bad, but it does contribute to why uptake is so low. None of this means the spec is bad though, just that people aren’t motivated enough to move (and look at Monks from release until… well now basically. They were a hero class and had almost zero uptick for multiple expansions until they figured it out).

As for MM (and hunters in general) catering to casuals - this isn’t a bad thing and it doesn’t make someone elitist simply for acknowledging it. It’s typical class design that exists in pretty much every game - you need simple specs, difficult specs, a few hybrids, some with no ramp and some with heavy ramp and something(s) niche. Comparatively speaking, MM is very forgiving and easy for someone to just pickup and feel effective (as is BM) vs say Feral druid. It requires zero setup time in PVP and the rotation in PVE largely revolves around two buttons (I am oversimplifying, but I would bet that most logs are over 50% dmg only from Aimed/Arcane juggling - 75% if you included borrowed power from covenants). Again, this isn’t bad, but you can’t pretend like you’re splitting atoms by double-tapping aimed shot out of stealth in randoms and leading charts (or lining in arena as BM while pets dump dmg remotely etc).

I’ve played Hunter since Vanilla and I’ve been there for every spec change along the way. I still pray for 2h Enh and for Comba… Outlaw to be viable and for DH to give Demo half its stuff back. So I get where you’re coming from. But your best bet is finding a way to make MM spec into as close as possible cata(ish) era Surv. A 4th dps spec very likely is not happening and getting full-kit anything from wotlk/Cata is a lost cause (but you can visit it when the inevitable wotlk classic drops).

[Lazyguide-area-52 (Lazyguide)]

@Bolvarded-sargeras

See I find a lot of the people who find it very fun weren’t traditional hunter mains before its release. MSV seems to cater to a different crowd which I feel is a big part of why long-time hunters are upset - the alienation. It doesn’t make the spec bad, but it does contribute to why uptake is so low. None of this means the spec is bad though, just that people aren’t motivated enough to move (and look at Monks from release until… well now basically. They were a hero class and had almost zero uptick for multiple expansions until they figured it out).

So, you don’t think that’s sort of bad class design to make a spec for a class that isn’t intended to appeal to the players of said class? It hasn’t attracted many different players to the class, and it has certainly taken away from a lot of long time hunters who don’t want to play melee.

As for your rant about MM, I don’t think people are arguing you have to “split atoms” to make it work. But you’re definitely over simplifying it which doesn’t give a great impression.

I think making old SV work within MM will require more work than making a 4th spec, honestly. They tried before and absolutely failed to do it and it ends up limiting MM’s actual talent choices. Reactive quick paced dot gameplay is different than the more burst gameplay that MM takes advantage of. And again since you keep referencing WOTLK / Cata era SV, most people expect it to be an updated / changed version. Most people aren’t asking to go back to exactly what it was before.

I want to play an arcane archer who infuses their shots with magic. I currently do not have a good option to accomplish that. I used to have that option, so it’s a little frustrating when someone is arguing against the idea of a 4th spec when that would let literally everyone have what they want. Blizz is more than capable of it.

[Killthots-stormrage]

What in the actual hell lol. How is es a mm thing when it was rsv main dps spell for like 8 years

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Killthots-stormrage

What in the actual hell lol. How is es a mm thing when it was rsv main dps spell for like 8 years.

Curious to find that out myself…

[Yura-area-52 (Yura)]

@Bolvarded-sargeras

But your best bet is finding a way to make MM spec into as close as possible cata(ish) era Surv.

“dont touch the useless melee spec that nobody plays, but alter the ranged spec everyone actually plays right now and turn it into something else”

[Stellarpaw-tichondrius]

If they are gonna make us melee there needs to be a mix. Sort of like Red Mage in FFXIV. An even mix of melee and ranged.

Something like ranged building focus, melee spending it.

[Noeyes-blackrock]

In my head survival isn’t just a “mele” spec, it’s a hybrid, and If it were up to me i’d do it like this.

-Cammo is now baseline for survival and it operates like normal stealth on a 6 sec CD, healing is gained through improved cammo tallent.
-Mongoose bite is now baseline, lasts 10 seconds and stacks up to 10 times
-Coodrinated assault wil pause the countdown on your bite.
-When you attack from stealth you gain 3 stacks of mongoose bite and apply serpent sting.
-Aspect of the eagle renamed eagle stance has the same effect but is now togglable
-New ability, raptor stance- mongoose bite has a chance equal to your haste+mastery to strike a second time, and double strikes cause your pet to use a free basic attack as if it had full focus
-Tip of the spear replaced with new tallent improved stances: Causes eagle stance to also extend the range of your auto attacks, and raptor stance will reduce the CD of wildfire bomb by 1 second when you double strike
-Mongoose bite talent replaced with raptor strike, which deals fixed damage and reduces the CD on wildfire bomb by 1 second.
-Flanking strike swaps you to raptor stance if you’re not already in raptor stance, and causes your next two mongoose bites or raptor strikes to trigger a kill command.
-Throw glave replaced with “In plain sight”: 2 min CD: Instantly puts you into cammo/stealth and for the next 2 seconds stealth will not break from damage or actions taken, if you enter stealth/cammo this way you will not regenerate health from the Improved cammoflogue tallent.

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

@Snipesy-area-52

I would give anything to have TBC survival back. Hunters are not meant to be melee…at all. Rexxar is a lore character and thats it.

And Rexxar was a BM from WC3 until they made him Surv for Legion

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

@Bolvarded-sargeras

How so? It’s a really cool idea that largely works very well.

Huh ? It is literally the least played spec in the game

@Bolvarded-sargeras

People miss an old spec that is now 3 expansions old - I get it, but it’s time to move on.

The only spec ever to be changed from one type of dps (ranged ) to another (melee) . Also when it was done an other dps spec was added with DHs causing a shift of 12 rdps specs to 11 mdps specs pre legion to 11rdps specs legion to 13 mdsp specs legion .

If they would of left surv alone there would of been balance between range and melee dps specs.

[Waidmann-gilneas (Waidmann)]

@Bolvarded-sargeras

You do know that every single spec has been screwed over at some point, right? Some have straight up disappeared completely (RIP Gladiator)

Was never a spec it was an ability to help Prot warriors with dps . So not comparable.

@Bolvarded-sargeras

from MM or BM or SV to make it viable

MM is a sniper .Surv was your forward assault team sneaking in , laying traps and causing havoc.

Anyone who thinks Rsurv was the same as MM never played the spec and is ignorant for even thinking they were the same.

[Aerenas-deviate-delight]

I miss old explosive shot, that ability was nuts.

That being said, I enjoy survival more with melee. Only thing missing for me imo is dual wield.

I’d rework Survival though to be Lone Wolf focused and give them access to stealth and weapons in general that have different functions like daggers restoring focus on crits, swords extra strikes, axes bleed, maces armour pen. Spears more range, 2h axes bonus crit damage etc

[Bepples-barthilas]

So basically you would rework Survival into Arms Warrior 2.0.

[Serenta-deathwing]

The two core elements of hunter are A) ranged physical dps and B) pet. So you remove both of those elements what is the point. It is no longer a hunter. Most of those weapons are so far out of the fantasy of a hunter in anyway shape or form you might as well be a warrior with traps. The pet should remain fundamental to the RSV spec. Lone wolf should never be an option. And it should suffer with out a pet. Other wise what is the point anymore. Just go play as Bepples pointed out an arms warrior. Bring back RSV.

[Covlol-illidan]

@Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord

Most people aren’t even asking for MSV to be removed. Most people atp are asking for RSV as a 4th spec.

This really shouldn’t need to be asked because MSV should of been an additional spec originally. I really enjoy MSV and I feel for the RSV peeps who got moved aside. Even Bepples, though I do like to troll him a little.

[Breesh-emerald-dream]

I’ve been a Hunter main since TBC and played MM/SV for years and just recently switched back to SV from MM about a week or two ago and I am enjoying it a lot more than MM or BM. MSV is slept on.

[Valentine-hakkar]

@Bolvarded-sargeras

Just amazingly, fantastically no.

You’re one of those people who think if they do not like something then no one should have it.

Those people are the worst.

[Bolvarded-sargeras]

Because I don’t think that a 4th DPS spec for Hunters is the right solution? That’s what you’re actually quoting, me saying I don’t think a 4th DPS spec on an all-DPS class is a good idea. I mean, you can always argue why you think it is the right solution, you know that’s an option right? Actually addressing the topic instead of personal attacks. Try it man, you might like it!

[Valentine-hakkar]

Quit acting so bolvarded and folks might respond better to your posts.