A history that is irrelevant to the topic of what version of RSV it is that we want back.
As that version of RSV did not exist before WotLK.
Current MSV has Carve baseline. Itās essentially Multi-Shot, but melee-based. At least by your standards, they are the sameā¦
The Butchery-talent for MSV has the same effect as Multi-Shot has for MM if paired with either Lethal Shots(talent) and/or Calling the Shots(talent).
This also happens to be what Bepples was talking about in his earlier post. Where he made references to current WoW.
So yeah, looking at spec differences/similarities today, is very relevant to this particular topic.
Your definition of ācoreā in this case, is the frequency at which you use different abilities.
And yes, pacing plays a part in determining spec/design uniqueness. But only A PART. Thereās so much more that plays into this, other than just the aboveā¦
Fair enough. Thatās your opinion/point of view.
Though, does that mean that there isnāt(couldnāt be) an actual way forward?
Much of my suggestions involving the reset mechanics of Black Arrow, in my proposed design, is based on the mechanics of that trinket. Not entirely based on it alone ofc. But to a degreeā¦
That trinket did have a big impact on how you played the spec back then.
Though, was the trinket a part of the core design of the spec? No. It wasnāt.
I agree on this part, specifically.
Still waiting for you to read through my suggestions on what RSV could be designed like, today.
Not saying that you have to love the design.
But after reading it, can you still say that RSV had nowhere to go, after WoD?
Would you still say that the spec couldnāt have been updated to fit into the modern game, like the other specs were with Legion?
Just go back and read what Iāve already said please.
While a good point, my point stands as when I said it.
Actually itās not. Whatās the CD on Multi Shot? Does it compare to Carveās CD?
Can you use Multi-shot outside that Build?
Unless you are Bepples, I doubt that.
Itās more than that, and I have explained it to you already, in multiple threads and even asked you to hit the HCT about it to avoid hijacking threads.
To be fair, you do understand what I was responding to on this right? He was getting a point wrong, someone who claims to have a vast intellect should grasp.
The trinket did not change SV at a core level. It was nice to have, but take it off for something else like a PvP Trinket SV is still going to play like SV was made to be.
I have, it takes me a while to think on things.
There wasnāt too much beyond exotic munitions, and even then that is a rather large headache for the Devs in terms of PvP (Frost Ammo was too strong) but again, Iām using critical thinking on your ideas and I want to think it out throughly.
Honestly if Titanstrike went to SV and worked off of the magic from the Gun and Hati they could have done better. That would leave Talonstrike for BM and give that spec a spec that actually feels like you are a master of beasts.
Sorry for the long reply, a lot to go through.
PS, typed it on my phone so pls excuse any misspellings or otherā¦
Mostly, this was meant to make a point, not to be taken in the litteral sense. But sure, while were at itā¦
Here, you bring up and compare 2 different abilities for the two specs(as designed in one period of the gameās history).
In your own reply, you also mention in what way those abilities are actually different from one another.
You also have the period when Cobra Shot extended the duration of SS. Another thing that Steady Shot, did not do.
Sure, each ability had a short cast time and it generated focus. This is on the same level as if you were to compare Frostbolt/Fireball or Arcane Blast for Mages.
Or pretty much every melee-based DD-ability we have in the game. You press the button and the character hits the enemy.
Itās those extra effects, such as DoT-extensions or CD-reductions, or DoT-applications, that differentiates the abilities.
Along with thematic design and animations.
Does that mean that every single ability has to feel like it comes from a completely different aspect of design? No.
Objectivelty, it actually makes sense for abilities like Steady Shot and Cobra Shot to mostly work the same way.
Like you said, they are meant to achieve the same thing, generate focus.
What differentiates them, is the additional effects that are also attached to them. Along with animations.
As for your original quote above here. It doesnāt matter jow much paint and polish you take away from either of these two abilities. Bestial Wrath and Black Arrow.
They still wonāt be the same.
The only way they are even remotely similar to one another, is the fact that they were both designed to, in the end, make you do more damage.
And yes, I know that you were talking about the frequence of button presses for each ability when comparing them. But they werenāt even similar on that end. Orā¦I guess, they both had CDs. But so does quite a few other abilities in this game.
Those two have never shared CDs(lengths).
As for your mentions about BC, the things you reference, have nothing to do with how RSV was similar or not to the other specs between WotLK and WoD.
What you talk about, is how people used to macro things into the least amount of buttons possible so that they wouldnāt actually have to use the different abilities separately.
Which is actually a way to work around any unique design elements that each spec had at the time. Rather than trying to embrace themā¦
Thus making that argument even more irrelevant.
You mean as opposed to your statement that Bestial Wrath for BM was the same as Black Arrow for SV?
Orā¦
Steady Shot vs Cobra Shot.
You ignore how the abilities actually worked, mechanically, in favor of only looking at the frequencies/pacing.
You talk a lot about abilities having the same end goals. Does this not apply to what both current Multi-Shot for MM as well as Carve for SV are meant to achieve?
And how they do it?
I personally think that both of them are different enough to speak to each perspective spec fantasy. But based on your own logic, they arenāt different enough.
Itās a talent comparison?
Talents that either affected or replaced a baseline ability in order to achieve the same end goal.
By in the end, doing the same things, mechanically.
Again, this is based on your logic. And what you said about for example Steady Shot and Cobra Shot.
And how you thought looking at todays spec designs was irrelevant to the discussion of the past.
@Naham?
Sort of yeah, but every time those other parts are brought up, you go back towards the pacing-argument.
So, your claim that SV had no way forward after WoD, was only meant to ridicule Bepples for not getting a point of yours?
Yes it did.
True, the trinket wasnāt a part of the specs core design.
But it did change how the core worked, as well as how you played and what decisions you made in combat.
/thumbs up
Did you actually read what I intend for Exotic Munitions going forward?
Because it has nothing to do with frost ammoā¦
In BfA, we have weapon enchants who are pretty much what Exotic Munitions was about in WoD.
My ideas for the effect, are meant to do other things.
Things that further cater towards the core gameplay of RSV and what it would be about.
You want to think it through? Fair enough.
But at least read what my intentions are.
SV was not a āāmagicalāā spec.
Sure, many abilities did Fire/Frost/Nature and even Shadow damage. But they werenāt actually designed to be magicalā¦
They(devs) just couldnāt justify for those abilities to deal physical damage, considering the thematic design.
No it isnāt. Firing off Black Arrow with a unique animation, firing Explosive Shot with a unique animation, reacting to Lock and Load procs for more free Explosive Shots, firing Serpent Sting with a unique animation, only using Multi-Shot to keep up Serpent Spread while weaving Black Arrow and Explosive Shot between multiple mobs. All instant cast, all fully mobile.
All of this generated a different look and feel to casting Aimed Shots followed by casting Steady Shot in pairs (or Focusing Shot at a longer cast than Aimed) while largely standing still to maximize your Mastery buff occasionally broken up by Chimaera Shot with AoE specifically being Multi-shot spread and Chimaera 2 target cleave only.
All before adding in talents and without considering resource costs versus generation whereby Survival spent the least amount of time actively generating Focus with Cobra Shot due to having free procs of itās hardest hitting ability (and reduced costs for all spenders when using Thrill of the Hunt) versus Marksmanship which was built entirely around build and spend cycles.
Or switching to Beast Mastery which was designed around Kill Command, Cobra Shot, and Arcane Shots used sparingly outside of Bestial Wrath but entering Bestial Wrath at nearly full Focus to spam as many of all spenders as possible for buffed damage at 1/2 the cost. When every ability had a different cost and thus didnāt really allow for a generally even flow from spending to generating.
So, you understand that you are still casting the same amount of time for the same reasons and the same result. At itās core itās the same and the rest is just paint and polish.
If you knew this then why post the rest?
Both. You made a poor comparison. They do the same task sure, but thatās all.
Are you getting it wrong on purpose?
Again, you are using them for the same reason, to get the same result, with the same amount of time to cast with the same nonexistent CD. At their core, the mechanics are the same. Yes somethings played the same because they fit in the rotation, a lot of things played the same because you were getting the same result for the same action. If this is hard for you to understand because of the language difference I understand, please reread it to get the comprehension instead of having us fill in the threads with just repeating ourselves.
A little bit yeah. Butchery has charges, Multi doesnāt.
You should stop this until you actually understand what I am saying, you clearly do not and at this point you look like you are just trolling to me. You are not as bad as Bepples who does it purposely just to get me riled up, but it would be better to just say I donāt understand.
You care to explain further?
Reread them again.
You are way wrong in this again, see above.
No it did not and you even explained why.
See.
Yup.
I was talking about WoD, sorry for the confusion on that.
Mastery buffed magical damage. Also they could have taken that way.
@Ragnoiros, read what I said. I donāt like repeating the same argument over and over again.
Because Cobra Shot did more than just generate focus.
Please, do explain why it was a poor comparison to your previous reply.
Sure Multi-Shot does not have a CD, while Carve does.
But that does not mean that each ability when used, is vastly different to one another. They still do the same things.
And as for the other comparison to your statement about Bestial Wrath and Black Arrow, you explain that by referencing the CDs and how often you used them. Which I said further down, us not true. As not even their CD lengths matched.
We can also go back to Steady Shot vs Cobra Shot here.
Cobra Shot in todays WoW, is an instant cast vs Steady Shot that has a cast time. So, are they different enough for you yet?(in reference to what you said about Multi-Shot vs Carve).
Yes ofc I am!
Really? Why even make such a comment.
I thought you said that Carve was different from Multi-Shot?
Not even going to dignify this with a proper answer untill you actually aknowledge that theres more to spec design and uniqueness than just looking at what abilities have CDs or not.
Because it is blatantly obvious that you do not care for flavor or thematics even close to how much you care about for example pacing and CDs.
Iām not saying that itās wrong to care about those things, but when you flat out state that the rest doesnāt matterā¦or that you should put that aside.
Just because it doesnāt matter much to you, does not mean that itās not a valid part of class and spec design.
As an example: you say that just because Steady Shot and Cobra Shot both had a short cast time while generating some focus, they were the same. The rest did not matter.
You can say this about Mages casting Frostbolts/Fireballs or Arcane Blasts as well.
Everything does not have to be entirely different on all levels in order to be justified to put into another spec.
And? Like you said, they both still did the same thingsā¦
The times where I have asked you, you just brush it offā¦
Which part?
You said that the trinket did not change SV at a core level.
And I said, yes it did.
It changed a lot of what you based your decisions on in combat, and how you used Black Arrow.
The trinket wasnāt permanent no, but it actually changed the core of SV, as to your claim that it did notā¦
Fair enough, though thatās not really relevant to the quote you made where you referenced my suggestions.
You talked about applying critical thinking to my suggestions.
My suggestions for Exotic Munitions are vastly different to that of the talent we had in WoD. Because most of what that talent did in WoD, is already in the game, sort of.
It buffed Elemental damage. The elements of the world are more than just magic schools utilized by casters.
Explosive Shot did Fire damage. Was it a magical ability? No, it was a gunpowder charge of sort, that you attached to your ammo/arrows.
Serpent Sting did Nature damage. Was it a magical ability? No, it was you as a character that had extracted venom from snakes and then applied it to your ammo/arrows.
Immolation Trap of the past.
Explosive Trap.
Etc.
Those arenāt actually magical abilities.
You can freeze things or make things explode/burn without magic.
And when focus capped you hit SrS. It was the same.
I did.
I already said why that was wrong, which you already know.
Why else ask a question you know the answer to?
You spam multi, not carve. SVās aoe works differently, itās more related to SrS and Bombs.
I could have worded that better. Sorry
And works differently.
When I brush it off is when Iāve already have given a detailed answer.
Itās because it wasnāt permanent. I gave Bepples swapping out tires on a car for the track as an example. Swapping between racing tires and street tires does effect the carās performance, but it doesnāt change the car.
Iām mulling them over. ATM Mastery is your only point that I have an issue with.
For RSV that was the same thing.
It did what is classified as magical damage, RL mechanics and IG mechanics do differ.
Like I said, Elemental damage is still a form of magical damage.
And for example, extend the duration of Serpent Sting.
Or for BM today, reduce the CD of Kill Command(and for talents, even reset it, or reduce the CD of BW).
Something Steady Shot did not/doesnāt do.
What?
Guess I phrased my reply the wrong way thenā¦
What I did was comment on how you said that Muliti-Shot was vastly different from Carve.
And I then mentioned your comparison of Bestial Wrath and Black Arrow and how they did their part to make you feel like you were playing the same spec.
I also mentioned Steady Shot vs Cobra shot because you said that just because they both had a short cast time and generated focus while having no CD, they were also the same.
While you continue to ignore the fact that Cobra Shot also did/does other things beyond generating focus.
Mostly, I ask questions because I do not know the answer, or I did not get what you meant with your answer.
Or, maybe I just havenāt seen your answer.
You have never really wanted to spam Multi-Shot.
Sure, it does not have a CD, so technically you could spam it. But considering what Multi-Shot actually does for each spec(or did in the past as well) you never want to spam it.
There are similarities, but there are differences as well yes.
Much like with a lot of other abilities you claim have no differences. And are just polished differently.
Example:
Mages and Frostbolt/Fireball and Arcane Blast.
Or Hunter:
Steady Shot
Cobra Shot
Etcā¦
It still changed the core of SV and the playstyle. And it affected your performance.
Racing tires vs street tires on a car changes the performance, it changes the vehicle characteristics and it adds a different āāshineāā or āāpolishāā to the appearance.
So does different abilities for different specs in WoW.
Tires are a part of the carās āācoreāā. Without them, you canāt really do much with the carā¦
The strength of the mastery effect entirely depends on the stat scaling attached to mastery values.
If you donāt want it to get out of proportion, tune down how much it scales up per point of mastery.
Or was there something else that you havenāt yet told me?
That was purely for practical reasons, that the devs did not want those abilities to deal physical damage.
It had nothing to do with them(devs) intending for the spec to involve the use of magic(like that of mages or priests etc).
See the above comment.
Like above, not by intention of designing the spec to be about magic.
It was for practical reasons.
It does not make sense for those abilities to deal physical damage(as defined in WoW).
Iām going to write out a rant in the HCT and explain it there. It should take a few posts. atm Iām working a maintenance job for 80,000 square feet by myself until my shift is almost over.
That would simply be a waste of your time as you are the only one equating all 3 specializations (WoLK-WoD) as being nearly exactly the same due to having the same/similar resource generator, Focus spenders, and various cool down abilities.
Forgoing the fact that Bestial Wrath buffed player and pet damage and reduced the focus cost of all abilities by half while having a moderate cool down. Thus creating a play style centered around weaving Arcane Shot, Kill Command, and Cobra Shot outside of Bestial Wrath, then maxing out your Focus to spam Kill Command and Arcane Shot within the Bestial Wrath window. Also skipping over BMās AoE being stacked cleave within 8-10 yards of the pet, triggered by Multi-shot every 4 secs, but also weaving in Kill Command on cool down. Also, Focus Fireās proc allowed you to consume you petās Frenzy attack speed buff to generate haste for the PC which was useful for faster passive regeneration and Cobra Shot casts(?)
Which differed from Survival placing Black Arrow on the priority target, Serpent Sting on every target in a ~90Ā° arc centered on the target then weaving in Explosive Shot (normal and free procs) across multiple targets and filling in with Arcane Shot and Cobra Shot as needed. Or using traps to generate Lock and Load proc free Explosive Shots. Skipping the fact that passive regeneration plus lucky proc streaks reduced the need to cast Cobra Shot versus BM/MM. Or that Serpent Spreadās DoT had a longer duration than Beast Cleave so you didnāt spam Multi-shot nearly as much and used other, higher damage instant attacks instead. As of WoD, Survival had no cool down ability and no execute either.
Which is again very different from Marksmanship casting Aimed Shot, casting Aimed Shot, Chimaera Shot, casting Steady Shot x2, casting Aimed Shot, over and over without being able to target swap instant cast abilities like BM/SV and with no real baseline AoE due to being Multi-shot only which hit like boiled spaghetti. Rapid Fire being a haste buff that had more impact for MM being cast heavy over BM with only 1 casted ability.
So again, trying to say all 3 specializations played the same to the degree you are trying to convince us of, is just the same as saying my Enhancement Shaman, Fury Warrior, and Windwalker Monk all play the same as well. You are basing the similarity on single basic functions of similar abilities and the presence of builders, spenders, and procs. All of which can be found in those 3 specializations from different classes.
You didnāt understand a single point of his post, which is when you broke the specs down they played the same. Different animations have nothing at all to do with the point he was making. From your post itās clear you donāt even understand the fundamental reasons you used those abilities, and therefore how they were exactly the same between each spec.
I understand perfectly well that having a specialization heavily based around procs of resource free heavy hitting abilities that spent comparatively little time casting felt much different than a specialization that spent nearly all of itās time casting or a specialization that alternated casted and instant abilities with no consistent flow.
Or that having 15 seconds of boosted damage at 1/2 Focus cost every 90 seconds was different than having no such thing at all.
Or that spending most of your time alternating between 2 casted abilities while not moving was immensely different from having a full toolkit of instant cast, player based, fully mobile damage with no AI issues.
Itās time to face the facts that survival in BFA for PVE is straight poop until blizz reworks or buffs it. Super sad numbers but keep living in this fantasy world I guess.
I would prefer if you could leave any feedback related to the suggestions in that post, as it was created specifically for that^^
Iāve noticed some confusion for example regarding our discussions about my RSV suggestions and the Mastery thing, when we post in the HCT thread as some who read it arenāt aware of what weāre talking about specifically.
Hence why itās best to keep feedback related to those suggestions in the linked topic
While itās pretty obvious that me and Naham disagree on many things, simply because we focus on different elements and how they cater towards spec design.
Iām not against him posting any constructive feedback that he might have after reading my suggestions.
The thing is, it doesnāt matter almost at all whether people think that the specs were similar in the past or not. Because the way specs were designed in the past, is not how we could design them today.
You can look at how RSV was designed in WoD. How it was in MoP. Or in Cata. Or even go as far back as to the beginning with WotLK when it was first implemented as a new playstyle.
You can always take inspiration from certain aspects of those past designs/iterations of RSV. But what you cannot do, is to simply ācopy-pasteā one of those iterations into modern WoW.
It just would not work due to how classes and specs are designed today. As well as what external systems we have/will have in the future.
If we suggest that RSV should be put into the modern game, it would have to be designed based on the modern systems and philosophies. The spec would have to be designed with the same focus on spec identity as all the other specs have been since Legion.
This is essentially also why I donāt have much interest in pursuing/continuing the discussion Iāve had with Naham regarding what RSV was like in the past. Because that wouldnāt actually be useful to the future anyway.
US topic/version(if you want to skip the first part with motivations, feel free to do so, youāve probably read most of it in other replies Iāve made anyway, by now^^)
The second part is the same as in the previous thread I linked(EU Version).
