It’s possible for a Hunter with Wyvern String to even CC 3 targets at once if they Freeze Trap, wait for CD, pull with Wyvern String into your trap, then FD and Freeze Trap another.
PvP wise I’d rather have Scatter Shot and do 0/21/30, but in PvE Wyvern Sting has its uses.
Scatter shot >>>>>>> Wyvern Sting
Nice strawman, like I get melee hunters have been a joke in wow for years but that claim was special. And mind you I didn’t include warriors cause you know the dodge chance and those overpower crits =/
I never claimed they were top dps, or even close, they sacrifice their dps for their survivalbility, but the 20% extra crit chance helps, and having lacerate would help too
2nd guy uses trinket or takes a dot tick, now you’ve wasted fd and proceed to get wiped, better to freezing trap
yes I’m aware it can be used in these two situations, as any ranged incap could be. Although why a hunter would be carrying the flag is abit beyond me most other classes would have a better time in terms of tankiness and mobility. And still freezing trap is better for that purpose. I could see it if you are trying to pull 1 guy off the fc and arn’t close enough to freezing trap. And yes I can see it’s use in pve, but at the same time pve hunters tend to go 31 MM for trueshot and just use freeze trap
That is, ofc, if you are not in melee, which survivals purpose is if you are in melee. And I’m speaking from a soloing and small scale pvp perspective. It’s not good at raiding (unless you’re a nightfall bot), it’s not as good at ranged dps
I’m sorry my playstyle doesn’t conform to your cookie cutter hunter specs, I’m sorry that it’s good at what it does and I’m sorry that retail has stopped you from being able to see outside the box what is a really fun, if limited, playstyle which could do for the bleed
We had these EXACT SAME conversations in Vanilla.
If you like it, play it. If you think it’s fun, great.
But you cannot make it something it is not, which is a good spec. Survival (0/21/30), BM, and Marks are all better. Melee hunter might be a 4th spec but it is definitely in last place when it comes to both PvE and PvP. Numbers don’t lie. And please don’t advertise “melee hunter” as anything other than it is, a sub-optimal funsie spec for those who want to be the in-game contrarian.
But again, if you like it, go have fun with it.
How is it a strawman? Warlocks have an entire end tree talent and item dedicated to firestone usage.
I’m comparing useless meme specs with useless meme specs. Same realm.
I never claimed you were claiming they were top DPS. this is a straw man argument.
You claimed they had ‘exceptional’ damage, and you’re basing this off of raptor strike (an on next strike ability) and mongoose bite (at best, a move that does between 90 and 180 damage once every 6 seconds if it hits and you’re still stuck in melee).
You know raptor strike didn’t have that 20% extra crit chance at the time Lacerate was in the game?
What DoT tick is the guy going to take from 41 yards away? What trinket removes sleep? It’s its own category of incapacitation that isn’t cleansed by any trinket. Will of the Forsaken is the only thing that breaks it, and given how frequently you see hunters with wyvern sting, most players won’t even realize they have a get out of jail free card in their racial ability.
Also how brainless is that guy going to be to see you FD/trap and still run into your trap?
Hunters are amazing flag carries as they can avoid the vast majority of people on foot with cheetah micromanagement and tracking. Add in deterrence, traps that AoE slow/entangle, flares, and ranged incaps and you have a class that is arguably as good as mages in solo flag room removal. Good micromanagement with pet can also prevent respawners at GY from mounting up by forcing combat if you’re running that direction.
All PvE/PvP hunters should be going 31 points in MM. The difference between PvP/PvE lies in where the remaining 20 points go. BM tree if the hunter is hit capped and able to micromanage his pet to survive raid fights, survival if he really needs that extra 3% hit for whatever reason.
I guess you could also go a meme spec like 21/21/9, but honestly you shouldn’t be expecting to live long without deterrence in PvP.
Got off topic–but the reason why wyvern sting would be better in the original scenario would be removing a target from play before he could engage the FC/you. Whether its dismounting to PoM/poly, charge, blind, death coil, it’s irrelevant–all are countered by a 41 yard incap. and because of the extra range, you’re not risking lag and spellbatching screwing you.
Yes, survival’s purpose is to help you survive melee, it’s not meant to make you a melee fighter because that isn’t what a hunter does well. Its purpose is to disengage and allow you to start using your ranged again.
I’m sorry you actually are arguing for lacerate of all talents to be reimplemented. In no arena will it ever be considered “good at what it does” in any iteration of vanilla WoW.
I don’t get why you think I’m a retail player, but let me help you out–why don’t you just play a warrior that only uses heroic strikes and rends in defensive stance so you can also use revenge? That’s essentially the same playstyle you described. Sounds like fun.
Survival WAS A MEELE SPEC! The problem was players where never good enough to master it so blizzard was forced to change it into something more mainstream. For example. What do you get at level one a BOW and a MEELE weapon. The first thing you learn about playing a hunter is shoot your bow then let the mob run up to you and attack it, then it dies.
Blizzard goes further into detail about this even in media, Rexxar who is one of the first hunters in warcraft lore uses meele weapons, and never ranged besides one skill, so uh hello? Are you telling me that the Champion hero of the Horde is playing his class wrong? Seriously Orc Batman, what a joke.
Hunter pet’s are all meele as well, this further explains that blizzard wants you in meele range, because how can you control your tools if you’re too far away to use them. also you can’t even shoot traps from far away, so it’s obvious blizzard wanted you to be close enough to use traps… Guess where traps are in meele range!
Now we can also dig up old files and Hunters where suppose to be able to use shields, obviously they where expecting to be hurt more this also explains why they can use mail! Not only that, but the reward for this playstyle at the end meele spec tree was a ability to watch your foes bleed to death as they run away in fear. NOT encourage you to shoot them down!
This also explains the dead zone, Blizzard obviously gave hunters a dead-zone because they wanted hunters to stop shooting there bows and guns, and start meele attacking them. That’s why aspect of the cheetah daze’s you on strike, you’re suppose to be fighting in meele range and swap to + dodge %.
Hunters also have a lot of freedom with there weapon style, in the form of duel wield two handed. Everything BUT mace’s and wands!
Also, another thing. Is that Players have used aspecet of the cheetah in the wrong way. You’re SUPPOSE to use it as a charge, when you’re fighting a mage the first thing you want to do is get close to them so they’re scared and blink away, if a troll hunter with a big axe ran up to a human mage it’s obvious they wouldn’t know what to do, as explained by WoW Lore, it also explains that aspect of the pack is meant to be a form a banzai charges, I.E the spec of survival hunter is used in a form of irony.
Thought’s questions onto this?
Dude, I’m dying of laughter here, I’m bookmarking your post. It’s a classic.
People have had plenty of time to play with all variants of the hunter tree. There was nothing to master. The survival tree let you put pressure in melee but that was to counteract the deadzone and to let you “survive” what would normally be death. You start with both because of the deadzone. You have to have a fall back til you get your pet later.
Blizzard has also made it clear that the big named characters aren’t exactly the run of the mill classes. They can fulfill roles other classes can’t. Sylvanis is a ranger which is a hunter that doesn’t use a pet. Does that mean hunters shouldn’t use pets?
Warlocks have melee pets too. Should they be in melee? They even have firestones which give bonuses to melee but no one is saying warlocks should have a melee spec.
I thought the same thing. I’m over here “Is he serious?”
![:cocktail:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/cocktail.png?v=6" ":cocktail:")
I really lost it at the end when he said, “it also explains that aspect of the pack is meant to be a form a banzai charges, I.E the spec of survival hunter is used in a form of irony.”
Just, wow
LEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOY!!!
This is what happens when you rely on people typing /s for too long to let you know they’re kidding.
You’re completely unable to detect sarcastic posts.
Bwahaha my bad man, i didn’t think anyone would take me serious on this, i’m actually sorta happy that my trolling is sub-par enough for when classic comes out. Good on you for point out firestones and warlocks.
Except there are people who legitimately think like that
Agreed. You can never know if people are being sarcastic or legitimately think that on these forums. @Pintero That was an amazing post.
Ok so you don’t see the difference between a melee clothie that has auto attack and no melee abilities to a spec that has a melee toolkit and mail armor?
I claimed they were exceptional anti melee, did not say exceptional damage
And yeah that’s unfortunate, thing is I’m mostly just hoping to replace wyvern sting with lacerate, but I’m not sure how bliz would do it.
I’ll give you the trinket point, as I forgot that trinks are class specific and only dispel certain cc. But keep in mind we were talking about bg’s, you know were other people could be hitting the guy and won’t immediately think the hunter is specd into wyvern sting. And landing traps is lit a hunter skill, it’s part of getting good
Ok so you put out this big arguement for wyvern sting right here only to say halfway through that hunters don’t build wyvern sting that they go 31 MM, which is the cookie cutter spec mindset that kills half the fun of classic.
See this is what’s killing me, you’re lit ignoring the fact that a hunter built for melee can melee, you’re taking what I’m saying from my experience playing a survival hunter in vanilla as a joke which makes this little debate difficult. Maybe I should’ve been a cool kid and done pvp videos
Never said lacerate was good, said survival hunter was good at what it does. I think you are a retail player cause it sounds like you only care about the meta and what’s good in raids. Yes obviously I’ve played retail and it has it’s moments but were talking classic here, completely different game.
And actually I plan on rolling a warrior this time around cause Ill have some security knowing the server wont get shut down and I plan on getting it together and pushing raids for the gear. However survival hunter is 1000% easier to level than a war, not as hard countered 1v1 in pvp (though deadzone still sucks but oh well), is better built for that evasive playstyle i enjoy, is less gear dependent so easier to enjoy for someone with a schedule that’s all over (myself), and has a pet ( <3 )
A good portion of what you’re arguing for is the DoT aspects of hunters–immo traps and serpent stings.
A warlock that far into the demonology tree is going to have soul link and most likely the voidwalker out, giving them around 50-60% damage reduction which is far more than a hunter. Their main damage is going to be DoTs that can be applied at any range. Is a warlock going to be vastly more effective at range than he is in melee using a firestone? Yes. See the comparison?
So you basically want changes then? Because the survival tree was much weaker in melee pre 1.7 than it was post 1.7. Exceptional anti-melee=/=exceptional damage? lol.
Actually we weren’t specifically talking about BGs at that point, just a 1v1 that was turning into a 1v2. Actually, it was a 1v1 that had another guy running to your fight to make it a 1v2, so I have no clue where these “other people hitting the guy” idea came from.
Landing traps on people requires you to be in melee with them. 99.9% of people understand when a hunter FDs, you don’t go stand where he stood without some form of DoT on you, otherwise you get trapped. Not that I consider FD/trapping to be difficult at all, as they sit right next to each other on my hotbar so I don’t have to waste scattershot for it.
Yeah, I’m saying if you want to have fun with wyvern sting–go ahead. It’s a garbage skill, but it has its usage–much moreso than lacerate would ever get.
Here’s a hot take:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050205182139/http://thottbot.com:80/?c=Hunter
Lacerate does 133 damage at max rank at level 60 over 21 seconds. You’re wasting a GCD and mana on a 6 dps spell that doesn’t even scale with attack power.
You’re going to take that over scatter shot? which does the damage instantly, can crit, scales with weapon damage, and disorients the target for 4 seconds?
I’ve played with wyvern sting before, and while it was amusing running flags when only one or two people had epic mounts in warsong gulch, scattershot is far more useful. I’d consider using it if it didn’t have a deadzone and was usable on in combat targets.
You realize cookie cutter specs were used for the majority of vanilla by the majority of raiders/serious pvpers, right? Hell, I’m not even the strictest when it comes to specs. I wrote a long thread about the viability of dagger wielding non human/orc warriors when it came to PvE on the feenix forums. If you have something unorthodox that works–prove it. Either with video evidence or theorycraft (actual math). There is nothing to substantiate melee hunters being a “thing” beyond kids just not knowing better.
What do you mean “can melee”, because here it implies that they can do it well–when they can’t. Do they have melee abilities? Yes. Should they be in melee in pvp? No. they have zero burst and zero sustained dps in melee, especially compared to their ranged abilties. That’s why they’re given an entire talent tree dedicated to helping you survive and disengage from melee.
Yes, you should’ve done some pvp videos. I’d love to watch a melee hunter get dumpstered for 10 minutes. There’s a reason why melee is called a “deadzone” for hunters.
So you’re arguing for something you think is bad to be reimplemented? In what world does that make sense?
Yeah, survival is good for surviving in melee and getting you to ranged.
I would’ve dumpster fired your thread back in 2006 too. Literal posterboy for “huntard”.
Ah, leveling as a survival hunter too. You’re just a contrarian. Or a troll. At this point, they might as well be the same thing.
Warriors are stupid easy to level starting around the time they get hamstring.
I can’t think of a single fight you can win consistently as a “melee hunter”, even less so that you won’t have top notch gear backing you up.
Ok so lets start with how you’ve literally misquoted me several times now and haven’t owned up to it, I’m not sure which you should do first learn to read or grow a pair
Almost, but here you are twisting my argument again. I’m literally arguing for the melee dot showing you how it fits better with the playstyle, I talked about their melee abilities to show why it makes sense for it to be melee, then I argued for the dot aspect, think of me as arguing precedent. Also I can’t say I ever seriously looked into firestone melee warlock so tell me, how does it fare 1v1? Is it actually good at anything or is it just a meme spec?
So I’ve been on the classic discussion train since the beginning. As I’m aware it has been decided that the only changes being made to vanilla are UI and backend stuff. However anything that was in vanilla is still open to discussion. And I literally said I don’t know how bliz will handle it, if they will do a franken patch on talents or go an on individual patch for each class or if they will just do 1.12 talents. Way to read.
Ok guy you lit were talking about being a flag carrier.
I’m glad you know how trapping works, good job, you leveled a hunter.
Yeah, why would I build so hard into melee if I was gonna go 21 marks, melee build requires a full commitment survival/bm, nothin in marks helps you melee better which you need full commitment to make it work
Oh did you forget the multiple times I mentioned that the style isn’t for raiding, cause I am extremely aware of how people cookie cutter (one of the reasons we got ourselves to retail). Well at this point I can respect you wanting proof of my claims, and that’s fair, I don’t have it and I don’t have an account on any of the pservers cause I’ve been holding out since nostalrius shut down, so I can’t make a video. Unfortunately I only have my testimony
Ah yes, I’m familiar with how group pvp works in wow. You gotta focus one guy then hard switch when he pops a defensive and nuke his buddy. Yes no burst, the extra dot would help alittle but not enough for that. The survival hunter is good 1v1, it’s literally just outsurviving people. But the pvp you are describing? No, not designed for it thats what you’ve got BM and MM builds for. It’s like tanks in pvp, everyone who knows what they are looking at ignores them, but 1v1 they arn’t attacking anyone else.
I really wish I did those videos now, but alas here we are. Oh and excuse me but the deadzone is the area between melee max range and ranged min range. Here you are pretending to be a hot s#!t hunter and you f#(ked that up
Over something that is 1 worse due to how HIGHLY situational it is and 2 doesn’t even belong in the spec yeah I’m arguing for lacerate.
You’re calling me huntard and didn’t even know what the deadzone was
I think we played two very different vanillas. Warriors being stupid easy to level? The class known for breaking people trying to level it into re-rolling? Ok guy
Clearly, and I’ve done my best to do it for you ,but I’m sorry man I’ve truly failed you
Yeah, and DW Arms Warriors, melee Moonkin, and so on all existed too. That doesn’t mean it was a legitimate spec, it was just some idiot not knowing how to play the game. Or an idiot messing around, you know, like I said in the text you quoted.
It wasn’t filled with melee talents. It was filled with survival talents (as in, helpful to survival. Defensive tools.)
No, it really, really wasn’t.
Ok? So you admit they do “sort of okay”? They still do less damage in melee 31 points deep in Survival than they do at ranged 31 points deep in Survival. It’s not a “melee tree”, it’s a defensive/survival tree. If you want to see a melee tree that actually buffed melee and made it useful, take a look at Enhancement.
No, they weren’t a ranged/melee hybrid. That doesn’t even make sense. Just because they have melee skills doesn’t make them a hybrid melee/ranged class; it just makes them a ranged class with some melee abilities to use when stuck in close range combat.
Don’t worry, it still is. Even with the old, pre-1.7 tree I’d rather go 0/21/30 than take Lacerate.
Well hunters had melee weapons and they had melee abilities, so yeah hunters can melee.
People who are saying survival spect was a range spec don’t seem to understand how spects function differently then they do in retail where you are basically a sub class.
No matter what talents a hunter chooses they can play as melee or range and their dps also depended on pets.
Hunters will play like hunters some people may not know how to play in dead zone.
A spect all about surviving in dead zone , improving melee dps or giving you defense abilities or improving traps is a good thing.
Playing a class is about using every tool you have, and not refusing to play melee when your in a situation where you cant shoot someone.