Survival Hunter Rework Concept: Still Melee, but more hectic

Classes Hunter
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So, i’m not a well known game developer or someone who has a diploma in balance, these are just my thoughts on Survival’s issues with their rotation and how better it could be.

Keep in mind, i’ve been raiding as Survival since the end of Ny’alotha, and i must say: Ever since Legion ended, Survival’s gameplay became bland, repetitive and boring when it comes to their single target rotation. Keep Serpent Sting on boss, don’t cap bombs, alternate KC and Raptor Strike. “B-but what about Mongoose Bite? Wildfire Infusion? They are super fun to play with!” The damage gains from properly optimizing those are so minimal most people don’t even bother with them and just play normally.

I’m still playing the spec because it’s still somewhat fun, but every now and then i take my time to come up with ideas to try and make the spec more fun and fluid. This time, it came up with a simple question:

Why is it that Survival doesn’t have any auto-attack synergies despite being Melee?

Not every melee has those (Windwalker doesn’t), and they shouldn’t be forced to. But a lot of specs atleast get something that makes you pay attention to the game, react and sometimes it helps smooth out your rotation (UH DKs, Ret, Outlaw, Sub, for example). My plan was to implement a system that would make Survival’s melee attacks more noticeable and let our melee rotation be something other than pressing Raptor Strike.

These were the concepts i came up with and i’ll try my best to explain why i made things the way they are. Keep in mind all of those effects are assumed to be baseline and not their talent counterparts.

  • Raptor Strike: A vicious slash dealing Physical damage.

This doesn’t and shouldn’t have to change. It’s Survival’s resource dump spell and is supposed to stay bland and simple, similar to an Arms Warrior’s Slam or Havoc Demon Hunter’s Chaos Strike.

  • Viper’s Venom: Your melee attacks have a chance to make your next Serpent Sting cost no Focus. If this is reapplied on an enemy already affected by Serpent Sting, it causes a Violent Reaction, dealing 250% extra damage on hit and refreshing Serpent Sting.

A simple and yet effective proc whack-a-mole that doesn’t fall into the issue of the current version of Viper’s Venom since it doesn’t punish you for getting a proc while the DoT is already up on your target. Following the next few changes, you might see this proc being way more interesting than you think.
Plus, since every ranged Survival player keeps talking about Black Arrow and Explosive Shot being the most fun thing ever, a proc whack-a-mole with an actual rotation on top doesn’t sound that bad.
Something important to note is that “melee attacks” include Raptor Strike and Carve alongside melee hits.

  • Bloodseeker: Your basic attacks have a chance to trigger two rapid additional blows. You gain attack speed for every bleeding or poisoned enemy within 12 yds.

Now you’re seeing where i’m getting.
More targets affected by Serpent Sting or bleeding through other sources, means you’ll see Viper’s Venom procs cluttering your screen in AoE.
You also have the choice to either use them to detonate a priority target or to spread them evenly for more AoE damage.

  • Kill Command: Give the command to kill, causing your pet to savagely deal Physical damage to the enemy and applying Lacerate, causing Bleed damage over 6 seconds. Has a 25% chance to immediatly reset it’s cooldown and generates 15 Focus.

Survival’s Kill Command is one of the most well designed spells in the game in my opinion. The fact that the Hunter takes it’s time to recover his focus while his pet is mauling his enemy always sounded so cool to me.
But i can’t deny that, after spamming this spell like a madman in single target to get nothing besides Focus back, i had to think of something better. That’s why i came up with:

  • Venomous Fangs: Casting Kill Command on an enemy affected by Lacerate grants your pet 6 seconds of Bloodseeker and Viper’s Venom.

This is a versatile combo. Having your pet as an extra battery to not only help you regain Focus through Kill Command but also generate Viper’s Venom procs is sure to be busted, right? Well, here’s the thing: You need to cast it twice on the same target.
Since you’ll be drowning in Viper’s Venom procs in AoE due to your Serpent Sting and Lacerate spreading, you might aswell not need your pet to gain those procs. But when it comes to single target fights, he’s there to watch your back. Not only he serves as a way to balance out your proc gains, but he also helps you generate Viper’s Venom procs from range.
I’d also like to mention that this duration can be extended indefinitely, which means you won’t need to worry about keeping a high uptime on this in single target scenarios.

  • Wildfire Bomb (Rank 3) - Wildfire Infusion: Lace your Wildfire Bomb with extra reagents, increasing their Focus cost by 20 but randomly giving it one of the following enhancements each time you throw it:
    Shrapnel Bomb: Shrapnel pierces the targets, causing Raptor Strike, Kill Shot and Carve to apply a bleed for 9 sec that stacks up to 3 times. Upon reaching 3 stacks, this bleed deals 200% increased damage.
    Pheromone Bomb: Kill Command against targets coated with Pheromones gives Venomous Fangs for 100% longer, has a 100% chance to reset it’s cooldown and doesn’t require Lacerate.
    Volatile Bomb: Reacts violently with poison, causing the Violent Reaction from Serpent Sting to all enemies hit.

Something a lot of Survival players wanted for so long: Wildfire Infusion baselined. This has been the face of the spec for quite a while and is considered by many one of the most well designed talents in the game.
That’s why i barely made any changes outside of buffing the blue bomb, reworking the red bomb to fit better with the new Venomous Fangs gimmick and reworded/nerfed the Volatile Bomb to make it on level with the other two (Keep in mind this new Violent Reaction has no AoE).
The focus cost increase was necessary, since Viper’s Venom means way more focus and that opens up a better mastery scaling.

So, how do i expect the gameplay to change from this?

Your Single Target rotation will be way more adrenaline filled and will require quick reactions.

  1. Raptor Strike will still be there as a way to dump your excess focus and to help you stack Shrapnel Bomb’s bleed.
  2. Kill Command is still your main way to generate Focus, but the interaction between Lacerate and Venomous Fangs lets you decide what you want to do. Do you want to get Venomous Fangs up and massively spread Serpent Sting, or do you want to use them to nuke a single target down? Or better yet, why not just ignore the Venomous Fangs passive and just spread Lacerate around the pack?
  3. Serpent Sting plays a bigger role in Survival’s kit than ever before. From a filler DoT that you’d keep up because you had no better buttons to a poison machine gun. You’ll see yourself spamming this just like the old days of spamming Explosive Shot.
  4. Wildfire Bomb took very few changes but it’s still filling it’s purpose: It’s an AoE nuke, but now the Infusion effects are worth your attention. Keep in mind that since this version of Wildfire Bomb costs Focus, not only it gains benefit from your Mastery, but you need to watch out for your Focus in AoE if you decide to spam Carve and Bombs without using your Viper’s Venom procs.
  5. Carve still fills it’s niche as a way to refund bombs in AoE for a better burst. Sometimes mobs will die before Serpent Sting takes it’s course, and flooding bombs is still a good choice.
  6. Coordinated Assault is still bland, but the only change i’d like to make is to atleast reduce it’s cooldown to 1.5 mins. It’s barely a cooldown currently and gets the same numbers as Bestial Wrath with an upside that’s barely noticeable.

So, what do you guys think? I don’t expect any of these to become real one day but i’d like to hear your feedback. Cheers!

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This all sounds good, from a guy who doesnt totally understand why everything works, and how. I do think carve, as is, kind of sucks. Like you said, it fills its niche of recharging bombs, but how? Why? Why wouldnt carve be interesting in its own right?

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Survival is in the best spot it’s ever been

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its already in their systems files. they just need to copy and paste patch 5.4 survival hunter and thats it done. no figuring out nothing. just copy and paste. the only time i think i could be a productive member of a melee survival discussion is if ranged survival is a 4th spec on retail. #stillpissedoffaboutit

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I would like Mongoose Bite interact with Serpent Sting with similar mechanic. Every successful hit of Mongoose increases the stack of Serpent unto 5 stack at which point is ruptures for burst damage and hitting near by targets.

Has chance of hitting twice and refilling focus quicker.

This sounds good. I think you have good ideas that could add some more synergy to the rotation. I still preferred the Legion version of SV as the revised rotation just feels too simplicit.

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Do people not realize that if they were to ever add Ranged SV as a 4th spec (it won’t happen) that it would be drastically different from previous expansions?

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nevertheless melee survival has no place in wow. the abilities make 0 sense. none whatsoever. they are more in line with an engineer or a tinker class that people got hyped. that is something for a whole new class and not a hunter spec. the class fantasy is missing and as far as im concerned it was just a dumb bold move to get people out of the spec / class.

at the height of mop hunters were the most played class and within the class survival hunters accounted for i believe close to 60-70% of the players that played hunter. why you ask well as i stated a thousand times before it was by far the most polished and fun factored playstyle spec in the game. second to none x1000.

so in good old blizzard fashion they needed to spread out the player base to other classes. and instead of working for their money and figuring out what made ranged survival so great and then kinda working backwards from there to make other classes equally as fun they just obliterated the spec and made it melee. why one might ask? well because it was 1 trillion times faster and easier. remember nobody asked for a melee hunter nobody and at the same time the forums were a constant spam about to many hunters. something had to be done. shame really.

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Sorry Vishamani but I do not understand your reasoning in that post

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It really does. This is so objectively wrong. Not only is there an entire game mode (pvp) that seems custom tailored to SV, but SV has proven that it has a place in arena, BG and M+.

You can make a lot of arguments, but starting with this statement taints the rest of your post.

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Ranged SV was a lot better at those things than melee SV, so no. You’re again viewing melee as a strength and not a weakness.

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You always talk about SV in PvP like you actually play lol. It’s one of the top 2s specs in the game atm. And is very competitive in 3s in Jungle and Thug. Even SV Cupid isn’t bad.

Stay in your lane bud

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So what? As a ranged spec it was one of the top specs in 2s and 3s and its representation was far higher than anything seen by melee SV.

You didn’t even contradict anything I said or point out anything being wrong. You just saw PvP being mentioned and deployed a canned response.

The fact of the matter is SV is strong in PvP in spite of being melee and not because of it. The only thing we can say is necessarily a result of being melee is Harpoon and its root. But as we see from ranged Survival’s performance that still doesn’t make melee the source of SV’s PvP strength. It therefore has never made sense to use PvP performance as a justification for SV being melee.

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The game when it was ranged compared to now, is so unbelievably different. Who says ranged SV would work now?

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The performance of BM. BM is strong because it’s consistent ranged pressure that can’t be shut down. That’s exactly how ranged SV was strong in WoD.

The point is the performance is not related to being melee or ranged (aside from the fact that dependence on melee is a handicap within the Hunter class), so why is PvP performance being continually cited as a reason to keep melee SV around? Melee is not the reason why the spec’s strong in PvP yet it is the reason why the spec continues to see low representation despite its performance.

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It’s not as easy to play as BM or MM. Why handicap yourself by playing something that requires more skill and has a higher skill cap, when you can just press two or three buttons over and over again and have success?

And melee isn’t even really a handicap as SV since you have numerous ways to kite and peel. And go in when you want / need to

There are clearly players who like the idea of MSV, who are involved with every aspect of the game. Are they as numerous as those who don’t? Nope. Do they still deserve to be able to play a class they way they’d like, within reason? Yep.

I’m all for adding a 4th spec

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Sv in general has always been fully capable and felt right at home in pvp, yes. M+ didnt exist, but Im sure it would have done ok.

You are right, though. Melee cant compete with ranged… as long as ranged dps has absolutely zero limitation; ranged weapons have no range limits, ammunition, etc. and ranged spells restore mana as well as use it. As long as we live in a world where blizzard decided (possibly wisely) to streamline so much of the gameplay loop, and optimize so much of the experience, then melee and range are not equals.

Im not comparing current SV to historical SV. And Im not even calling it MSV, because thats inaccurate. Im just arguing that current SV fits in the modern game just fine. It keeps up with other specs in quite a bit of content.

Its subjective to compare any spec in the modern game to any spec in the distant past.

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It’s more a defense. When people say “SV is not suited to any content” its almost natural fit in PvP is convenient evidence to the contrary.

In PvE it is effectively a melee DPS with lower physical resistance and no unique utilities. Despite occasionally having a damage profile suited to specific encounters, it makes sense to argue that it is inherently hindered by range.

Those arguments disintegrate in PvP. It doesnt even have to be the best hunter spec. People just have to like it, and people do in PvP, because it shines. It gets to explore the entire battlefield. It offers a fantasy that no other spec in the game can offer. These are all strengths.

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Each spec has an area that shows it strength. BM is great at solo and pve content. MM is best for raids. SV is design for PvP it has the most mobility out of an other melee spec, and has enough cc to help out with group PvP.

People just overlook PvP as a reasonable purpose for a spec and think if your not pushing m+ or raids then it does not have a place in that class.

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This is a failure of the game. Not the spec. Not melee weapons as a fantasy or a mechanic.

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if sv gets a 3rd rework it should be back to mop SV

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