SURVIVAL: Enough Complaining, Let's Talks Solutions

Literally one comment in, and the thread gets derailed into a discussion of why SV should or should not be ranged. Come on, guys.

Personally, I think a lot of OP’s suggestions are either outside the realm of possibility at this time or - as is the case with the weapon kit idea - just plain outside the realm of possibility in general. But in the spirit of suggestions for the spec, I offer up the following personal take:

Melee vs. Ranged: I don’t care. I don’t care where the spec stands in the fight, I really don’t. I like melee, I think a melee hunter option is appropriate, and I’m gonna write this under the assumption the spec is melee. But survival being melee is not a hard requirement for me, so see my footnote.

Spec Theme: I like the spec being themed around “the right tool for the job.” Venoms, explosives, gadgets - I’m here for it. I also like using a pet, but don’t think the spec should be reliant on it. I’d support a Lone Wolf option for players who prefer to go without.

Spec Mechanics: I’m on board with SV being a DoT-focused spec. I’m not on board with traps playing a heavy role in combat. I recognize this is an unpopular opinion and I present it as a personal preference. I like the idea of using traps to set up a small advantage outside combat, very much. I’m happy with my hand crossbow and bombs in combat.

Focus Generation: Tie it to the DoTs. Tying it to the pet puts too much reliance on the pet specifically. Put the spec in a place where it maintains DoTs for Focus, and spends it on Flanking Strike and Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite.

Dual Wield vs. 2H: I like the option, but don’t see it as necessary. I don’t need the option to dual wield and, if included, wouldn’t want to see the spec gain any functionality based on dual wielding.

Specific Suggestions:

  • Mastery: Increase damage and/or duration of DoTs, and proc chance for Flanking Strike.
  • Increased Melee Range: Bake it in baseline - just an extra three yards, like Outlaw’s Acrobatic Strikes or Feral’s Balance Affinity.
  • DoTs: Give us one more baseline. I’d like to see something frost-themed, in reference to the old Survival ammo trifecta. Make it a pool enemies have to stand in, to keep it functionally distinct from Serpent Sting and Wildfire Bomb.
  • Flanking Strike: Make it baseline, replace Kill Command. Remove the focus generation, remove the gap-closer, add a focus cost. Make it a spell that has a small chance to proc availability off autoattacks - it gives the spell a flavor of taking advantage of moments of weakness, and gives us something to do other than stack DoTs and spend focus.
  • Tip of the Spear: Make it a passive talent that offers a flat increase to Flanking Strike’s chance to proc.
  • Mongoose Bite: Another unpopular opinion here, as I want to keep it a talent. I love the functionality, I just think MB as a talent meshes well with what I’d like to see in talent and talent tree design (a separate topic). That said, Blizzard and I don’t agree on talent design, so I wouldn’t complain if it were made baseline.
  • Caltrops: Give it back. It was cool, it fits the “any tool for the job” theme. Give it back.
  • Wyvern Sting: Give it back. It was cool, it fits the “any tool for the job” theme. Give it back.
  • Wildfire Infusion: Neat talent, wouldn’t trade it for the world. Needs some adjustment in this build. Replace Shrapnel with an effect that “detonates” the new ice DoT and causes a brief bleed. Replace Pheromones with an effect that causes all autoattacks within the window to guarantee a Flanking Strike proc.
  • Raid Utility: 5% increase to the raid’s physical damage. Let’s be real: This is what Hunter’s Mark should be doing (and should be doing without active application). Monk shouldn’t have this. They’re a hybrid class as it is. They bring enough to the raid.

And … I think that’s it. I could go on for a while about talents, I suppose … but I won’t.

Footnote: If you want to make it a ranged class: Replace Raptor’s Strike with an instant-case shot. It could be Arcane Shot, or it could be Arcane Shot’s Survival-specific replacement. Mongoose Bite effects this shot the same way it effects Raptor Strike. Replace Carve with Multi-Shot. Replace Butchery with something range-appropriate - like Explosive Shot. And you’re done.

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It wouldn’t be a bepples response if it didn’t berate someone and tell them how wrong they are for posting their thoughts on changes.

Although I don’t agree with OP’s version at all really. We’re either the MSV as it is now or back to RSV.

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I think Blizzard needs a clear direction in what they want Survival to be.

They need to redesign the mastery and go from there.

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To be fair to Bepples… This was the OP’s 1st paragraph

And Bepples’s response was

Soo… you can’t really complain that Bepples derailed the thread when they were literally responding to something the OP said…

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Honestly, spec plays fine. Move some talents around, give us a raid buff or mortal wounds, increase SS duration, allow dual wielding, make Mongoose and W.I. baseline, and oh yeah… give us something unique in SL conduit/legendary-wise that isn’t from this expansion…

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I would prefer mongoose bite to not be baseline. The fact that it absolutely dominates your rotation is terrible. Make butchery baseline instead and change mongoose bite to have more synergy.

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I mean I see what you’re quoting but that has nothing to do with what I said. OP’s not going to get all that much support with some of his statements lol.

I don’t think he derailed it at all.

Okay well to be fair to that point, Bepples response wasn’t berating them about them being wrong for posting their thoughts about changes. They were asking a couple questions.

OP made a statement about if you played vanilla. Clearly he doesn’t know bepples and isn’t an active forum person.

Bepples went on to say OP’s vanilla experience was made up and that he has no place to talk about it.

I believe bepples just read it in the wrong context but I think you’re reading the wrong response dawn.

No, I read the OPs response and Bepples response to that. I still don’t think Bepples was berating them. I’ve seen Bepples berate people, and that’s not even close.

The “No place to talk about it” comment was in response to the OP sort of implying that Bepples didn’t play Vanilla. by saying

The fact that people think that was a dig against anyone just proves how sensitive this particular forum is.

Like people read posts to intentionally find a way to get offended by it.

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Agreed. Regardless though, I think we’ve derailed this thread enough.

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Woah hold the phone, no one derailed anything. All I see are opinions, which is what I asked for. If it were an argument I’d be lighting it up.

It’s the job of devs to do a quality job, so I don’t make excuses for them, I focus on what I expect as a paying customer. It’s our job to express our thoughts and criticism, so I’m glad you decided to add ideas.

Survival has been characterized by its focus on traps since day one, so saying they shouldn’t be a big deal in combat is like saying there shouldn’t be a Survival spec at all. Might as well just play another class entirely. I feel it’s the best part of the spec and that traps make more sense for a ranged, or at least partially ranged spec. Like you said, right tool for the right job. The current model is decent, but clunky and over dependent on pets. We both agree that DoTs should be the focus recharger.

If they’re going to keep the spec pet dependent, then they’ll have to change talents like Viper’s Venom to proc off Kill Command, because it synergizes better with a ranged ability. I’m not sure what they were thinking making it proc to Mongoose. Just another exampled of rushed, absent minded mechanics.

Up to you, but the differing mechanics were to compensate for the damage loss. Unless they magically hit as hard as a two hander. I figured it’d add layers though.

Melee/ranged hybrid, I typed that out wrong. In any case, hunter was a hybrid in SV spec and it was glorious.

I wasn’t bothered by Bepples response, since my old hunter was pretty unconventional, but I must ask, did you ever play Classic hunters? Or the following expansions? Having range and melee was exciting and super fun. It was faster pace than this clunky spec. Then again that was before all these annoying secondary stats started cluttering the game.

Though I admit, if I were given the choice of one over the other, I’d go back to RSV over this junk. I just want my instant range attacks, DoTs, and traps back. The current model is so sluggish and dumbed down.

I was talking about the discussion Wing and I were having.

My apologies.

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Yes I did play vanilla hunter. I will be the first to admit though not having played vanilla in many years… I simply was not an expert then even though I played religiously. My memory does not serve me as well outside of remembering generally how it played.

Folks like bepples, yourself etc are far more knowledgeable.

I tend to not agree with the clunky aspect, at least not in the later stages of BFA. A lot of classes are clunky in early gear. MSV took lots of haste this expansion to feel fluid and once it did; it was an enjoyable spec.

With that said it should have never taken roughly 40-50% haste minimum to feel playable. It all boiled down to gcd. If left as is something as simple as removing kill command from the gcd would at least attempt to help it feel more fluid especially early on.

My 2 cents.

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Agreed, especially with that last part because I don’t want to have to be a 600 item level nerd-god just to function properly. Truthfully I’d rather gear not effect PvP at all, and generally find the grind tedious, but that’s just me. I’d rather just enjoy the game and look for secrets, but at least with oldschool SV I never felt sluggish.

The other side of the coin is Fire Mage a class that can exploit secondary stats with a transcendent ability like Greater Pyro. I saw this troll yesterday firing those off in 0.5 seconds. Absolutely ridiculous and unacceptable that Blizzard would allow something so imbalanced to occur. I honestly wish they’d go back the Classic’s simpler system and ditch secondary stats so that we all know where we stand with our powers, and no more cc breakers.

No dots. This isn’t running through the trees nipping away at your enemy health. This is me and my pet in your face tearing you apart. Pressure is on you cant handle the heat you try to run, no chance. Trapped, intimidated out of melee range kill command kill shot dead.

I enjoy the overall spec. Grenade to the face at point blank range is dumb, but o well.

Aoe cd is a pain, but with bomb its hard to argue.

Talents are underwhelming so are legos, but base kit isn’t too bad.

more interaction between pet and player be nice. I will be gearing up both a BM set and SV for SL

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Genuinely didn’t know this. Good to know a talent was around and gone pretty quick, I guess?

Back to the start of the thread… Melee/Hybrid in Vanilla. I was actually quite fond of jousting in Vanilla PvP. It’s how I handled the deadzone. Of coarse there were a lot more keyboard turners back then.

Anyway, I appreciate the community always having and expressing ‘fix it’ ideas… If only the devs put half as much consideration into it as players do…

But we’re not devs. I doubt the devs visit/read here. It really doesn’t even feel like they are engaged much at this point past the art and sound teams…

Maybe WoW is just a foot in the door position now untill they can transfer to other projects…

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