Or change the system so everyone has to contribute some sort of key fragment rather than just the GL. Just like how horrific visions used to work.
You can still leave whenever you want, but it isn’t consequence free (your fragment depletes too).
Or just get rid of the depletion entirely. You still can’t “sub” someone in to avoid abuse, but at least you aren’t being forced to re-push your key. Everyone collectively had their time wasted, so there was a consequence for everyone.
There is no silver bullet though - they would have to change a few things and not just one thing.
The answer is to take the superior model FFXIV uses. In FFXIV, a queued group exists for something like 90 minutes with an option to vote disband after like 15 minutes or something. Once that timer expires, the group disbands no matter how near/far you were.
WoW can do something similar. If you use LFG to host a run, you’re automatically subject to certain templates and expectations on your run (which the game would then need to build the instance and run things once the group is formed). I’m not going to bother to spec out the particulars because we’re far beyond wishful thinking anyway, but it could happen.
The bigger issue is you can never stop the infamous alt + f4 and even if by some miracle WoW was able to detect that key command, I got a phone app that can remotely shut down my router or, to get really basic, my lightswitch controls the outlet and power adapters my PC is connected to. There is exactly 0% chance WoW can differentiate between a legit and simulated disconnect/power outage. At worst, they can punish people who happen to have them during key/instanced runs…which they already do with deserter in some capacity.
Fundamentally though, WoW has always erred on the side of player/group agency above all. It’s why they didn’t get involved in “ninja loot” drama or unfair group kicks. The mindset has always been the leader has absolute and final say what happens in their group while players always have the freedom to leave if/when the situation is no longer tenable.
At best, what we can hope for and expect (though likely never get) is raw data/stats related to players and the keys they start and complete vs abandon to come up with simple ratios that is public knowledge as much as your IO scores and armory data is and tools like Raider IO can piece the info by key brackets just like they do with number of timed runs by key level band. This is data I argue should absolutely be available and exist precisely so players can decide if an applicant is deserving of that invite in the world where they want to time but complete anyway.
But like I said, don’t hold your breath for that info. Until then, the best thing you can do is NOT to invite the uber geared/IO player for a key clearly beyond their range. Any reason they have to be there is sus af and you’re taking the chance they’ll brick your key at the slightest reason because they know they can get into another run in no time. Keep to people who clearly need the run and are appropriately geared and scored and odds are good they’ll stick around for at least a +1 to vault and the reduced score, if applicable, anyway.
Right, but if everyone contributes their own fragment, they all go up or they all deplete. So it addresses that scenario of (only leader assumes risk).
Also - leaders don’t get the sole benefit, since everyone in the group is eligible for loot at the end of the dungeon and gets credit towards the GV.
You make it sound as if the sole “benefit” is the new higher key.
Well the system works as designed. You could alter said design.
Or manually deplete via the guy in DF (I assume he exists like in Oribos). So this is just a made up concern.
Frankly, you should be able to right-click a key and manually deplete it. No resets, or rando npc necessary (even in the current system).
I didn’t suggest it. I said it has a foundational superior model for how a completed run would have to function. There has to be some kind of hard stop because expecting players to endure a bad run that theoretically can never be completed and holding them hostage under some kind of threat of punishment is the actual non starter.
And yes, FFXIV holding people to some kind of miniscule expectation of completion standard is better (as is many other elements of their gameplay sans mythic+ which they don’t have an equivalent for).
But the reason some people are pugging sometimes is they want to keep their key for guild mates for a later run.
The current system is much more flexible.
If it ain’t broken don’t fix it.
Why would anyone do that ? Just spam groups until you get a group able to finish or time.
Yes. The solution to that is the current status quo and people just coming to terms that just because you zoned in doesn’t mean you’re entitled to the loot chest at the end.
It’s M+, not a queued heroic dungeon with 3x Luck of the draw buff.
That simply isn’t happening and I’ve already outlined several times that people like you can just not use the optional system, it’s okay XD.
Let’s be real, it’s not going to be implemented and this is all just a process to brainstorm thoughts and ideas for fun. No one is giving abusers more power (in this situation) except you. It’s almost like you’re scared of losing your hold on being able to be toxic and abusive in keys you run. Explains why you’re on a level 11 alt =/
Last time I’m going to tell you, it’s an optional system that NO ONE has to use. Not sure how much more clear I can make that. Move on
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Why would you sign up for an optional key AND Confirm that you’re there for a ‘completion’ key with repercussions on the ‘completion popup’ at the start of the dungeon? Why does it have to be held hostage instead of actually trying for 5 more minutes? Or talking your group into giving up? Or some sort of compromise? Why are you so afraid of players in a multiplayer game?
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Sure. If one extra pull sabotages your run, it’s not going to make it anyways (right? Cause that’s why you’re sabotaging?) so that will be obvious. If you keep doing it, it will be obvious and you CAN be held accountable (unlikely but if you’re a repeat offender, like you sound like you are, much more likely).
Again, optional system is optional. You’re not describing problems that don’t already exist and/or are worse as is. Move on
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Someone continues pulling extra mobs despite many warnings.
Someone’s DPS goes from being 60k to 30k.
It’s all pretty obvious when you see it and one offs happen and aren’t a big deal.
I’ve seen extra mobs pulled all the time and usually recover from them, not the end of the world and I never think those players are sabotaging a key.
The real question is why would someone rather play horribly and be toxic for five minutes to try to get out instead of just trying (and failing) then getting out in five minutes?
Players like you really make me question things, like who has such toxic thoughts XD so wild to me. No wonder you’re scared of my proposed (entirely optional) system. You don’t want to be held accountable. You have all these negative thoughts and have clearly thought long and hard about ways to sabotage groups under the radar (likely from experience). You’re just trolling at this point, hiding behind an alt to avoid repercussions (big surprise there)
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I want to try to keep your focus because it seems like you just keep jumping all over the place trying to use strawmen to argue nonissues. So please, how would this optional change impact your gameplay if you’re not using it? I’ll wait.
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What is terrible about it? You do understand it’s optional right? Like you don’t have to use it nor does anyone else? And with default remaining ‘standard’ keys, as it already is, it wouldn’t even be something that was pushed. So again, what is terrible about an extra option for people that want it? What is terrible about in-game voice chat being included in the base game? How does it all impact you?
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It’s not a retribution tool. It’s not for you. I’m not sure why you’re afraid of this. I’m simply providing a compromise/voice for those that want it. I’m not afraid of a ‘retribution’ tool (weird way to look at it) even if I were to use such a system as I have nothing to worry about.
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Wait, is this you? XD
So which is it, there’s no one it doesn’t work for or are there like 50 active pages about leavers? I’m confused
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I’m sorry, I thought this was general discussion and that I’ve been clear several times that I’ve been simply looking for solutions/compromises for those that want it. Again, this idea doesn’t apply to you and won’t impact you, move on
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It’s so cute to me that you’re back into a corner and when confronted with logic you try to get me with a technicality.
Please direct me to the open (active/current) mythic+ leaver suggestion thread. Preferably one that hasn’t been derailed by people like you who are here simply to troll (which is also against CoC btw).
This isn’t a thread complaining about leavers. This is a thread presenting solutions, optional ones. And somehow you take offense in something that will never impact you. Wild.
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Third time on same boss, that could def be a thing, I do like the automated popup idea. Think you’d need like 4-5 votes for first popup though, one less after each wipe maybe? Yes, I know this opens stuff up to abuse, as does anything else, just an idea. Besides, it’s generally much easier to actually try when you know the end is near instead of dragging your feet because you’re not getting your way, especially when using an optional system.
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Much like my proposed idea, this thread is entirely option. Yet here you are. Weird
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Agreed. And this system is not designed for that or for people like you in mind. it is designed for those that DO want a system where there are repercussions for repeat offenders. This is an optional system, no changes to the existing system.
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Your toxicity is showing. Why sign up for a ‘completion’ key knowing that people are there to complete it (or try their best to)? Going back to your example:
Why did you sign up to get your toe nails ripped out if you’re just going to complain about it later?
Of course it is. You want to punish people who won’t carry you through a key you’re obviously unable to do, even if you list it completion.
I’m not afraid, I just don’t want EVEN MORE toxicity and thus threads about it on GD.
Yes.
Both can be true. Just because there are threads on GD doesn’t mean the problem actually exists. There’s threads on GD about healers having to do DPS, no one complains about this in game.
Except I’m not, you’re just concern trolling since you claim this hasn’t happened to you, you’re just talking for those poor 50 other thread people. Because they really needed an ally to start a 51st thread.
Your cure is worse than the disease.
If you want to force me to stay in your key, you’ll listen to me telling you why we’re not finishing it.
That’s not toxic, that’s you wanting me to be stuck in your now failed key.
The solution is letting me leave without consequences. Because otherwise, I’m staying and giving you an earful.
I don’t for one, and for two, just because you list it “completion” doesn’t mean you’re able to complete it.
You can’t hold people hostage in your “completion” key the group is unable to complete.
There’s a lot of great ideas y’all have going (including you Raiimir) and I love to see it. This is what I want to see! While it is off topic of my suggestion, there is potential there for the discussion to kick up some good ideas, for players or the devs, on how to encourage people to finish
I will say to add on to what y’all were suggesting about everyone having to contribute part of their key towards the run. I think it could be neat if there was a system in place where you could gamble your key with the leaders key, and then be rewarded for completing the run (higher rewards for timing). Maybe better loot or your key goes up as well if you time it. Something idk. Could be neat.
There is nothing wrong with the current system. People only leave when things seem impossible or youre not going to time the key. Solutions arent solvable on Blizzard’s end with this issue, it’s completely player reliant.
No one is asking for that (well I’m sure some people are).
Majority of people just want a system where people can’t leave after one bad wipe. Or rather are less likely to.
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Not sure if you know this but there will always be threads about any and everything. If you ever used GD forums, you would know that. I know you think you’re a forum hero or something but really you’re part of the problem XD out here trying to police people who have a different opinion than you. Forums are all optional. You don’t have to read about any of it if you don’t want to. Exercise some self control
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Just because it’s not a problem for you doesn’t mean it’s not a problem. Those people have every right to voice their opinion of the game they pay to play just as much as you do. You have the right to voice your opinion as well but that doesn’t give you the right to dismiss them entirely because they don’t agree with you.
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Except, it has happened to me. I have had leavers in my group. I’m just not super worried about it. I just see a lot of people that have problems but no solutions and then a lot of people like you who say there is no problem. Like you said, it can be both. A problem and not. Just like my solution can be a solution and irrelevant (to those that don’t want/need it)
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Constructive discussion to help the key succeed is better than blaming and dumping on everyone, instead of being toxic, you could try to be more positive and encouraging. Try to fix the problems instead of just giving up. Most importantly, no one is forcing you to do anything. You are choosing to do an option form of mythic+ and that has it’s own risks/rewards. Why do you feel compelled or obligated to do ‘completion’ keys if you want nothing to do with them? Even with my proposed system, you could vote to get out, even with just your vote. No one is keeping you there and no one is forcing you to queue for the optional mode >.>
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No one is being held hostage. They’re choosing to be there lol. You just keep making up problems that don’t exist to fit your narrative. It’s sad really.
I realize now that you’re just another toxic forum troll with nothing of value to add.
I’m just going to block you and have one less headache to deal with.
I truly hope you take satisfaction in the success of your trolling/toxicity. Hopefully some day you’ll try to contribute more to the discussion than just a bunch of negativity or at the very least try to respect other people enough to realize the world doesn’t revolve around you.
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To everyone else, thank you again for suggestions and the discussion. Keep up the good work Hopefully some day there will be a solution people will be happy with (or happy to ignore lol).
Have a wonderful rest of your week!
Edit:
Came back after walking around a bit. I regret that I let Raiimir’s toxicity seep into me and that I sunk to their level. It’s not who I am as a person, I just really hate internet bullies (and that’s all Raii will ever be). I apologize for my behavior.
To anyone that’s ever been talked down to by Raii (or anyone else for that matter), just keep your head up and keep doing your thing. The world is full of negative people and negativity in general. Don’t let it cloud out your positivity
Thank you all, best of luck to you!
The only real solution would be to allow backfilling vacant spots. Unfortunately that would be abused like crazy by boosters. Right now you can avoid most leavers by putting completion or chill in the key title.
One bad wipe is usually key. If you wipe on a boss having popped hero, it’s a sign the group is in for a problematic run.
Exactly my point. No need to add to the noise, just post in existing threads.
Play better and it won’t happen with enough regularity to change the entire Group Finder tool.
At the point where I’m leaving, encouraging is out the window. I want to leave, but since I’ll be punished for it, then my only option is to make YOU leave first.
Leaver punishments breeds toxicity.
If you’re going to punish leaving, you’re holding them under duress.
They don’t exist now because there is no punishment. If there is, the problems will creep up.
Classic case of cure worse than disease.
Typical brick wall person that can’t see reason.
I’m not the one asking to punish people. I’m not the one that’s toxic.
My message is clear : the system is fine, stop fretting your key being aborted so much. That’s the real solution.
If it’s not common, it doesn’t need a fix then does it ?
Why not? Because you say so? Is that all you’ve got?
This has nothing to do with “me” using it or not. You keep turning this into a personal thing when really it’s a theoretical and to some extent philosophical flaw in your design. Punishing leavers = empowering people to treat others horribly without fear of them leaving their run.
You’re signing up for a COMPLETION key, not a key wherein people are too incompetent to kill the bosses or are being toxic. Or do you think players should agree to be held hostage in completion keys? Is that part of what they’re signing up for?
I’ve had people accidently pull multiple packs during dungeons. They were not sabotaging but they were just bad. How do you tell the difference?
I’m not sure why you’re saying this as if it’s a cur-all. “I have created this horrible system capable of fostering toxicity and abuse, but it’s OPTIONAL!!!” Do you think it being optional makes it okay?
Except you can’t hold people hostage currently. That’s the difference.
What if they say sorry everytime afterwards? How do you know that’s intentional?
This happens literally all the time in my runs. People’s DPS fluctuate depending on bosses, mobs, CD usage, etc.
So again, you’re failing to showcase how one can tell the difference between accidents and intentional sabotage.
Issues that you have no response to =/= strawman. Furthermore, everything I’ve “jumped” to is in reply of your own argument. I’m not sure how you’re getting lost in your own statements.
We all play the game and an MMORPG. Whether I interact with the system or not it impacts me by being in the game and affecting the culture of the game as well as the behavior of players.
Have you not been reading? Every post in here that’s not written by you explains how it’s terrible.
Not yet, it likely would be if implemented given the obvious flaws to the OP’s proposition and the notoriety of the PUG M+ community.
Possibly, which would make it more common for me than the leavers everyone obsesses over.
Answer this one for yourself. Is it really fair to say any group of people are terrible because of the actions of a few? Let’s think about things before asking questions please.
However, It seems that having a mechanic that punishes a player (the keyholder) for whatever reason has already introduced friction, hence all the posts about key brickers or leavers or whatnot.
The punishment seems one-sided, the key gets degraded and the leaver suffers no consequences.
Would removing the punishment of the key being degraded lead to less friction?
If the run falls apart or fails for whatever reason there is no progress made on the key, but no degrading it either.
If the degrading mechanic is needed, perhaps make it a non-player-oriented thing.
Failure to progress your key in a certain amount of time, say a week perhaps? or something like that will have it degrade. Not because of the actions of players in the run.
