[Suggestion] Mythic+ Completion Keys

Community General Discussion
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[Added some edit notes to the bottom of the post]

I feel like this has to have been suggested or considered already but wanted to hit it again (since searching has failed me):

I know there are people that are upset about people leaving keys early, specifically one when thing goes sideways (and likely to be timed poorly if at all). I know there are people asking for deserter or penalties for those that engage in that behavior, and that there’s not really a way to do that across the board without people abusing that system.

Outside of playing with a guild/team/friends, which not everyone has the luxury of (or desire to do), I propose a system to help combat that for those that want it, an opt in, totally voluntary system if you will.

I will say there are (currently) three ways your keys can be flagged as you’re forming the group (alongside my beliefs of the implications alongside them):
Standard | Generally pushing for time, people may ride it out or the might leave. Kind of a mixed bag and the basis/default for most groups.
Beat Timer | Lesser used (as far as I know) but pretty cut and dry. Expect people to leave if timer isn’t happening.
Completion | Another lesser used option, ironically often not even by those that complain about leavers. Expectation here would be that you’re there to see the dungeon through to the end, outside of it simply being impossible for some reason, ideally timing it. People less likely (or slower) to fill as a lot of people aim to beat the timer and see this and deduce it’s less likely.

Finally, my suggestion is simple. Add a penalty system in place for people that leave ‘completion’ groups specifically. It would require a little extra work to implement (wishful thinking I know) but would create a system for those that want it.

How it would work:
System would would work largely as it is now. Difference is that (maybe there’s an option on the key font as you deposit key) you accept the ‘completion’ settings at the start of the run. Much like a ‘you’ll be saved to this instance’ prompt. At that point everyone is locked in. Anyone that leaves early is subject to penalties (deserter, lose of rating, something, etc). The only way to leave early is initiate a vote to end the run prematurely (or if it’s just not happening). Perhaps 80% votes required. But that number could be reduce with wipes and/or time remaining/expired.

This would create an optional system with stricter restrictions (for those that want them). Biggest downside I could see is it splitting the community, which let’s be real, is already a thing.

TLDR: To combat undesired leavers, enforce groups that are flagged as ‘completion’ runs. Use a confirmation window at start of dungeon. Allow majority group to vote to end (prematurely) end the run. Votes required reducing as wipes happen and/or time passes. Penalties for those that leave said runs. Leaving ‘standard’ and ‘beat timer’ runs unchanged with ‘standard’ remaining the default.

Edit: Added information about reducing votes required to end dungeon early. Also, this feature would be entirely optional, specifically opt in only. Default keys/options would all remain as is.

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How many wipes do I have to suffer on Odyn before I get to leave ?

At some point, “completion” is not a 100% garantee.

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I too would like to know how long four people can hold me virtual hostage in a 2 hour wipefest?

it’s a completion key, after all. And, hey, I have no problem sticking around for a weekly no leaver. one glance at my druid’s io history shows I’m not afraid to deplete a key, but there have to be limits.

I’m not sticking around for 3-4 hours with a group that can’t kill hyrja, for example… and I shouldn’t be punished for it.

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People will just go afk until the group votes to leave then. Won’t solve the issue, because the issue is only solved by players and not Blizzard.

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This is a good point. But this is also why I made this. Players can not and will not solve this problem. It’s just not in their nature. All you can do is restrict them (again, as an optional form) and hope to minimize the issues. People that are worried about being held hostage are often the ones that are first to leave and they will (and should) avoid these if they’re that worried about it. Speaking of …

Agreed. And it shouldn’t be. I think something similar to other games (and I’ll add this to my OP if I can refine it) where once the timer lapses, it requires less and less votes to end the run, maybe tied to wipes much like determination stacks. Maybe once it’s been X amount of time/wipes, it will only require two or even one vote to end it. Probably FULL wipes to help avoid people just afking the clock down and/or again utilizing a report system to ensure those that do that are punished accordingly. Again, all still open to ‘abuse’ and that’s something that can NEVER truly be fixed. This just narrows the window/possibility of it happening.

Ultimately, it’s an optional system that NO ONE has to do and goes in knowing there are risks but hopefully results in less frustration for everyone.

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HoV is 38 minutes.

Let’s say we’re 20 minutes in, and Hymdall isn’t dead yet, and the healer is standing in Horn of Valor’s dragon tails, wiping us for what as now been 5 pulls.

Do I really have to wait the extra 17 minutes on a key that’s obviously not being completed ?

This is already in game. That’s what M+ is.

You don’t have to run pug keys, there are other options.

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What if someone has to leave a key for a real emergency? Why are they being penalized for IRL occurrences when they come back? Seems like it would feel pretty bad when you eventually get a chance to play again and you lost rating for something out of your control.

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A lot of folks gonna be sitting around waiting for folks to join their completion locks.

The next step is people asking Blizzard to give folks an incentive to choose completion keys since no one at all will sign up.

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conversation over right here. A system that allows access to so many people that they are rendered anonymous will always lead to people being cold and calculated with respect to their own rewards. You either get access to that many people and can make pugs effectively, or we go back to spamming trade for two hours to run a five man. You don’t get both unless you go make friends. If you’re unwilling to do that then get over it.

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And what would you do if the group is forced to leave the dungeon because a boss is unkillable for them? Do you believe they deserve the penalty as well?

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Notice how this pops up so much more often at the end of a tyrannical week? There’s a reason for it: people don’t want to be stuck in a horrendously long key that may not even finish. Fortified weeks have leavers but at least you can always finish it.

The solution is to make it so that people aren’t afraid of wasting an hour or more of their game time for nothing. Bring back Bwonsamdi or something else to effectively lower the key level by 2 or 3 if you fail the timer so that almost any key is at least completable and the leavers will go way down.

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or, align your interests with those you play with. I don’t owe pixels anything, but I will stay for an hour to deplete a key for a friend who may be new at the game.

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Vote to end it. I’d like to think that with that many wipes on the board, maybe you’d only need 3 votes to end the run and surely you’re not the only one who thinks so. Worst case, what’s another attempt to reduce the number required to end it.

If people understand it’s over then it’s over but if they want to try it because there’s a chance then who are you to give up. Ideally you go into these knowing that struggling like that is a possibility but that hopefully it goes off painlessly as any other key. Worst case you know it will be over after set amount of time. That all too much to handle? Do ‘standard’ keys. This isn’t for you.

And to you I turn it back on you. It sounds like this simply isn’t for you. You don’t want to pug, don’t pug. You’re just here to be negative. Like, I’m talking about something to make things (hopefully) better for people that do have to pug and you’re sweating it while at the same time talking about how you don’t have to pug. Take your own advice XD

And to your first point, mythic+ isn’t that. Mythic+ is full of toxic players that use third party websites and consider keys ‘dead’ if someone turns the wrong way. Extreme example but it has and does happen. If this system keeps people like them (and you) out of ‘completion’ keys then perfect. Mission accomplished. :stuck_out_tongue:
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I mean, how is that any different than any other aspect of the game? Games don’t care about real life emergencies (even most jobs don’t). If you leave LFR early there’s a penalty. If you leave RDF early there’s a penalty. If you leave a BG early there’s a penalty. Why should a theoretical system where there’s penalties for leaving m+ early be exempt from that? Technically, there’s actually room for those emergencies if you can engage in the social element with people in your group and they want to agree to calling it early because of said emergency.
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Then they wait. It’s similar to xp off BGs (when those were a thing). People either wait or they do standard keys (which generally should be an acceptable substitute). There should never be an incentive to do completion keys outside of that you can feel safer doing them to complete keys.
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What are you scared of? That YOU won’t be able to bail on keys because you’re not happy that it’s going to be 30 seconds over? Because the only person this negatively impacts is people that bail early on keys (often). People like YOU based on your perception.

It’s an optional system. You can use it or don’t. Default system would still be ‘standard’ with options for ‘beat timer’ and ‘completion’, as it already is. There’s literally no reason you can’t have both. It’s like you didn’t read my full post (extremely likely based on where you stopped). This ‘system’ is in addition to what’s already standard. There’s NOTHING forcing you to use it.

I don’t understand why everyone is so hostile towards an optional system they never have to use. Outside of the obvious THEY are the problem and are upset they wouldn’t be able to troll or be toxic in keys. Literally makes no sense.

It’s an optional system. If you’re worried about it. Don’t use it. It’s there for people that want to see people that leave early held accountable and again if you don’t like that, don’t use it. End of discussion.
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I covered this in my OP. The group can vote to end the run without penalty. I didn’t put it in the OP yet but with additional wipes/time you could require less and less votes to end it. So the more severe the key is the easier it is to get out. You also can just not use it.
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This basically. I personally pug (tank on my paladin with a DPS friend) all my keys and set all to completion and have had very few issues and time most of them. I’ve only had leavers once or twice out of hundred or so keys and I’m up to 2300~ now (not high I understand, just a frame of reference).

I’m arguing this to try to help those people that DO want a system where people CAN and WILL be held accountable for leaving keys (specifically ‘completion’ keys) early. An entirely OPTIONAL system that people don’t have to use if they don’t want to. Yet everyone is arguing against it like it won’t change anything or that they’ll just do normal keys. Do that. Do exactly that. This isn’t for you XD

I swear it’s like I’m arguing that they should put/keep in-game voice chat as an option even though people all use TS/Vent/Disc/Mumble/Skype/Neopets. People MAD that there’s an option, even if it not great, it’s there if you want it. Exception being I could potentially see an argument against voice chat being in-game since I think it does utilize some additional resources (not 100% about that but I see it in my task manager all the time and never use it)

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What happens when 2 people want to end and 3 do not want to end? What stops those 2 from sabotaging the group until the other 3 comply with their vote? Do you see how this doesn’t work at all?

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What if it’s 4 guildies and they vote to keep going ?

Am I really stuck hostage in that key ?

I have no problems pugging keys though. You’re the one with seemingly a problem.

I never meet these supposed “toxic players” in M+. Maybe it’s you ? Ever considered every toxic encounter you’ve had has a common denominator ?

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A vendor that alters the key into a completion key, increases modifers by 30-50% and adds new trash packs. Trash % is still required if not higher then the standard key.

Raiderio would still log it and you can log avoidable damage.

I would only support this if removing the timer increases the base difficulty and modifers. Simply taking a 2+ or a 15+ off a key for completion would make the key trivial for most people.

I also think completion keys should only come from a vendor toggle from a key you got from m+, otherwise this will get abused fast.

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So people list “completion” because they know they can’t do the key already…

… and your solution is making a key they already can’t do even harder ?

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The only thing I want from m+ is more damn gold from it. Just did a +15 and there was 50 gold in the chest. That should be amplified x10 at the least. Running keys doesn’t even pay the repair bill for running keys.

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o people list “completion” because they know they can’t do the key already

People already and always have listed keys they knew they couldn’t complete or had the skill to carry themselves. Your point?

and your solution is making a key they already can’t do even harder ?

No one said you couldn’t leave, no sane person would agree to that for any MMORPG content.

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Their point is your suggestion doesn’t accomplish anything productive. Making the key harder serves no purpose.

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