Would be better on Shadowstep tbh.
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Every class does not have a Spell Reflect ability, but Spell Reflect in itself is relatively specific in usage. Youâre either popping it defensively against magic damage that you canât reflect (popping for DR) or popping it offensively/defensively against specific ability shots. If I recall correctly they also somewhat normalized the damage of abilities you can reflect, so itâs not obscene like it used to be.
Of the classes you could compare to a Rogue, Warrior is probably one of the weakest to compare in terms of overall utility. Spell Reflect is great, love it, but if I want less utility kit Iâll play a Warrior. Not more.
Rogue has some notable issues with design under the hood (moreso than when I last played it to any extent which was BFA), but itâs still got a lot to enjoy about it. Blizzard has work to do in reducing clunk/jank and streamlining some entirely unnecessary archaic things still in kit (Slice being its own global in setup which is getting addressed, button bloat in general, etc) imo, but itâs not a miserable sad sack of a class. Iâm enjoying it, at any rate, but then Iâm not hyper-focused on one piece of content, just enjoying Outlaw.
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Just make sure you only do 1 point versions in P2 or the swirlies will kill you
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Maybe. But as you should know I am an advocate for Rogues on this forum so youâre really coming at me with some weird energy.
Hunter is one of the few classes I donât play and it never occurred to me that a class able to sic a pet on you and attack from 40 yrds away would have that many low cost ways to clear a status that barely effects it.
I was assuming some good faith design principle. I make my suggestions from the perspective of overall game health.
I do think Rogues need a better way to clear snares and roots besides Vanish and Cloak. Because such an easily applied and ubiquitous form of CC shouldnât force our most powerful defensive CDs
I also think loading more utility onto Feint is a bad design decision. Sprint is the OBVIOUS choice here to give us snare/root break and suppression. And I have outlined elsewhere how I think it should be implemented to address the issues the OP is talking about: that there are a lot of roots and snares.
But come on? Every 15 secs clearing roots and snares while reducing damage by a significant margin all off GCD? That would be a bit much given our other tools. The fact is melee DPS are balanced in part by how much time on target they can get.
There is precedent for Rogues having too much mobility and it negatively affected parts of the game. Particularly PvP and hard casting spells.
This is 2024. Every class is just as mobile or more mobile than rogues. This isnât 2004 anymore.
I dunno. Again, Hunters can disengage to break roots with a movement speed boost, they have a pet that can also freedom them and they have feign death that can remove debuffs all on a fairly short CD. And they can pew pew from range. Plus, they donât ever have to hard cast other than aimed shot if theyâre MM.
Donât forget about turtle and survival of the fittest.
Edit: Cheetah too, their traps and concussion shot to slow. If youâre able to stay on a hunter, something is wrong or youâre really lucky.
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Combat Readiness was a bad idea though. It absolutely made Rogues too tanky. Combat Readiness itself was a response to Rogue innate dodge being gutted to the point of non-existence. There was once a time when Rogues just dodged stuffed outside of Evasion meaningfully. In fact the whole idea was that as Leather wearers we compensated for low DR with a decent chance at full negation via dodging. It was the trade off of having low armor.
Now dodging something is a nice thing that happens every once in a while rather then a core part of our defenses.
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Look, I too agree Hunters get too much. They seem to think otherwise if you spend any time on their forums but thereâs a reason they represent 10% of all level 80s. And it ainât just because they get pets.
The class absolutely has a bloated kit. My suggestion would be to nerf them a bit but thatâs not super relevant. Rogues have high innate mobility and stealth does a lot of work but I agree we need a more active response to roots and snares. I just donât think the answer is to make us un-peelable outside of hard CC.
But if you want to just talk smack about Hunters Iâm here for it. We can be real spicy and head over to their forums and do it if you like.
Not talking smack. Comparing one class because you think rogues are super mobile.
Just pointing out the obvious. Iâm sorry it hurts because itâs obvious we (rogues) are not the most mobile class.
Are you a hunter main trolling on the rogue forum?
You sure are mad about me pointing out the obvious.
Stealth is good but itâs got its own bugs that needs to be fixed.
OhhhhhâŚHunters also have stealth.
If I was talking smack, Iâd be on the hunter forum posting on my hunter telling them they donât deserve a rework come October 22nd because theyâve been getting worked on the entirety of The War Within.
Another few classes to compareâŚâŚIf you think rogues are mobile. Have you seen or played with monks or demon hunters?
Sounds like youâre trolling.
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True but that dodge was never returned and now we are back to square one where Rogues are tanky because of double feint charges.
Spamming Feint isnât what people had in mind when playing Rogue back in vanilla. In fact people complain about button bloat but adding another charge to Feint was a mistake.
Yeah Monks surpassed Rogues in terms of mobility a long time ago. Only recently in DF and now TWW have Rogues caught up with buffs to Sprint, shadow step being accessed for Outlaw/Assassination.
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Blizz implements a good change and theres always someone saying its bad. Evasion was literally not used in PvE outside of scenarios where the tank died. There was a reason for the addition of the 20% wall. Combat Readiness would not have helped.
They could have buffed leeching poison to 20% and it would not have been stronger than a second feint charge. We literally had the potential for 20% leech before TWW. In what world would that ever be stronger than a 40% aoe damage reduction + the Elusiveness buffs?
Having 2 charges protects us from the majority of rot damage coming out as they typically cover spans of 6-12 seconds.
And Recuperator? Its always been a joke of an ability. Rot damage will tick your for 10+% of your hp and you think Recuperator would help? Even at its strongest it barely did anything.
The funniest part about all this is Shadow Dance was our 2nd strongest heal before TWW. Only losing to Crimson Vial.
Ironic.
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Damage reduction for Evasion is a mistake because as you can see it was not enough which is why Feint has two charges now.
But Evasion pays a tax for having a damage reduction tied to it as well. That is why this thread and the OP have to understand the more you tack on an ability the more balance decisions have to be weighed against and considered from the devs point of view.
So tying a root or snare break to Feint means that BlizZard must nerf the CD or increase the energy cost of Feint.
Also that is why the second charge of Feint is toxic to the class as a whole because all the other tools in the Rogue kit are ignored.
If Rogues had Smokebomb and Dismantle baseline in PVE that would tilt things in favor of Rogues in a hurry.
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???
âThey added more to Evasion, but still had to add more defenses overall so adding more to Evasion was a mistakeâ
How does anyone take you seriously?
What tax???
Evasion has been a 2 minute 10 second duration immunity to direct physical damage (barring those few and far weird situations) since Mists. Before that it was a 3 minute CD. Evasion is probably the singular Rogue ability that has never been pruned or nerfed or taxed in any way. Elusiveness could reasonably be taken on a fight without any AoE damage where youd want to use Feint just because it turns Evasion in a 20% DR. Its a straight win for Evasion. Please do us all the favor and stop talking.
I do not think Hunters have too much. Other classes have similar tools like Hunters now. Rogues are the exception.
Which is why a second charge of Feint and now taking Feint off the GCD are just band aids and donât really solve the main issue with Rogues missing tools.
True, Iâm more arguing to give us innate dodge back. Iâm not a fan of Feint spam myself.
Dodge got gutted in general and itâs been a design choice since WoD. There are post of people complaining that Rogue dodge âeverythingâ even when not using Evasion. And when Rogues annoy someone we get nerfed.
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Perhaps that is true. Itâs not like they are well represented in the highest levels of PvP so those tools must not be serving them all that well.
But see thatâs the rub. Because Rogues are well represented in high level PvP. And as I have said before anything you give us must necessarily be filter thru that consideration. As much as it sucks to have to do that you really have to consider just how potent having 2 charges of a 15 sec CD root break / snare cleanse would be on Rogues even before you consider itâs DR properties.
Iâm not sure why people seem so resistant to the obvious choice of Sprint being this tool.
Yes other classes have similar tools on shorter CDs but it seems like that doesnât make them overbearing. I genuinely suspect that Rogues would be monsters if Feint did what the OP suggest.
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A druid can literally shift out of snares and roots. Having Feint break a root/snare is not going to be tipping over any balance as far as PvP is concerned.
Technically it would make Feint worse because youâd be using it when not taking burst damage or AoE damage.
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I would say it doesnât make Feint meaningfully worse. More bloated for sure. The DR last for 6 secs and anytime you are being rooted and or snared you are probably going to be taking damage in the near future. There are also some other differences. Soon Rogues wonât have to give up GCDs for Feint and Druids can shift at will but do at least have to give up GCDs.
Itâs typically a losing proposition to have to spam shift as Druids. Itâs good mostly for root break which isnât nothing mind you.
To make it clear as I am beginning to see a trend: I do not think another class having a particular capability is necessarily a good argument for another class being given that capability. Down that path leads class homogenization which I think is bad for the game overall.
I think itâs fine if Druids get to just shift out of roots at will. I think Rogues are different from Druids and so giving us the same ability might have different results, though I might be wrong in that assessment.
Overall I think Sprint allowing us to suppress roots and snares is the better option as it spreads utility around our kit. If the effect was put on the Featherfoot talent Rogues could have 12 secs of immunity to roots and snares every minute or 6 secs of immunity every 30 secs with PvP glyph Maneuverability. This would make the ability similar to other abilities like Tigerâs Lust or Freedom of Movement thought with a much more beefy speed boost which I think compensates for the fact that the Rogue can obviously only use Sprint on themselves.
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I just want them to bring back Sprint water walking 
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Youre entirely right with this point. One of the reasons im surprised by some takes made by rogue mains as it has so much unique stuff and players always want that uniqueness removed.
Iâm not sure about rogue uniqueness anymore. In 2024, other classes have caught up or surpassed rogues (meaning they have what we have). We are shell of ourselves and have been abandoned. Just look at the hero specs and how little they tune/work on rogues. The favorites have been getting a rework every week.
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