Things are subject to change, but right now, sub rogues feel so good on PTR. Took some different talents that I do on live, such as gloomblade and altracity. The rotation feels nice. It’s no longer mindlessly shadow dancing and getting out as many eviscerates as possible. I love maintaining SnD and rupture. I’d wish rupture would give back energy, like it does with assassination, but it’s fine. Would love to see Cold Blood come back as well, but it’s ok if it doens’t. Outside of shadow dance, the damage looks like it’s not as bad as it was in BFA. I’m thinking it’s because we don’t have 2 or 3 charges of shadow dance anymore. Honestly, it feels a lot like the original implementation of Assassination Rogue. Just feels so good to play,and I really hope it stays this way, and not get nerfed to the ground again because of a gimmicky boss that Blizzard had no idea how to tune.
Enveloping Shadows says hi.
meh, no need to take that talent if you don’t want to. They can just base damage around 1 charge of Shadow dance now, so should be easier to balance.
I’m wondering how starved do we feel for energy? Is it smooth or bursts with long dry spells if you know what I mean.
I didn’t feel too starved. A little bit maybe, but nothing too bad. It feels pretty smooth. Vigor may help out with that, but I haven’t tried anything with that. It gives 50 extra energy and also I think 10%increased energy regen. Having slice and dice really makes things feel better. I’m really glad they added it back baseline. I feel like it was a necessary move. Rupture doesn’t really have anything. Would love to see serrated blades come back to have interaction with it.
Do you mean Sanguinary Vein? Personally I’m not sure if I want that back. You’d still deal the same damage regardless and you already want to cast Rupture anyway because it deals more damage than an Eviscerate, just over time.
All Sanguinary Vein does is force you to apply Rupture on a target even if it dies quickly taking away the player’s decision/skill to gage how long a mob will live and what finishers to use.
Personally I would really like Energetic Recovery to return. It causes Slice and Dice to increase your energy regeneration. Even without ER you still get more energy from Shadowy Techniques with SnD active but that requires you to be auto attacking a target.
On the beta i found NOT having enveloping shadows felt terrible, worse the higher my lvls got and stats lowered. Not having it only adds 15% dmg. Later on that may be viable but esrly on with Sdance now having 15% dmg baked into it up from 0% in BFA it makes enveloping shadows a really nice option for added bursting.
Also Slice n Dice DOES increase our energy regen just based on shadow techniques. Its amazing
Maybe they renamed it to sanguinary vein idk. Back in vanilla in the sub talent tree, there was a talent called serrated blade that lets you ignore armor and cause rupture to do 30% more damage.
The entire point of sub is to pool energy for dance while maintaining slice and dice.
If you are energy starved as sub you shouldn’t be playing it.
That was a fun talent to use to make bleed builds back in the day. Good times. 
On Beta/PTR, Enveloping Shadow is so much stronger than Dark that I can legally admit you to a mental institution if you don’t take ES. There’s no two ways about it, we’re strong and it feels good to have SnD, but we are back to mindless SS spam.
In case anyone doesn’t know, sub is bugged on PTR, slice n dice is healing my character for around 1.7k every second that it is active, idk if it’s bugged for the other specs or not
Just report it and hope they fix it!
Also, Sub with high up time with Find Weakness feels very, very strange to me. Like why?
SND being back with Sub is ace as it smooths out the rotation. Also rupture being back makes the spec feel more like a Rogue.
And being able to shadow step + Shiv again feels nice. 
Now, BlizZard needs to unprune Gouge for Sub and Assassinatoin and maybe even Smoke bomb IMVHO.
I never used Enveloping whenever I leveled as Sub because Opener -> Evis -> MfD -> Evis is enough to basically kill any mob in SL up to level 60 as long as you are above iLvl 475 right now on Live.
I would only use Dance on group quests that I could solo due to Soothing Darkness, but in that case the extra damage from Dark Shadow became better because I would have to kite some and wouldn’t get use out of a 2nd Dance.
Yeh nice. My build was probably not optimal. I wasnt running subterfuge which i should be. And used vigor over Mfd. Still working out the kinks.
I am concerned tho about how squishy we are without the SnD bug making us unkillable lol
No Sanguinary Vein was a talent introduced in cata causing you to deal more damage against targets affected by your bleeds (and it caused gouge to not break off of your bleeds but that was broken).
I just thought you might’ve mixed up the names since you talked about “interaction” and personally I don’t think a 30% increase in damage to rupture gives rupture more interaction whereas you could argue that Sanguinary Vein does (in a forced way).
More recently Nightblade had this baked in since 7.2 iirc.
Wouldn’t this same argument hold true about moving the loss of Nightblade’s damage amp into giving FW more uptime and introducing the bonus damage from FW rather than simply increasing the base damage of the entire kit and leaving everything the same?
Guys, don’t wan’t to interrupt this cool conversation, but isn’t thread named “Subtlety PTR feedback” fit more in " Shadowlands Pre-Patch PTR", when there is more chance Devs read that. It is a thread create to do that kind of feedback, it would be more effective to spend your energy there I think.
Cheers!
Those are valid points which I agree with to a point. The people that want FW to be from-stealth only are saying that in it’s current form it’s either;
- up 100% of the time, meaning that it might as well not exist.
- up 70~90% of the time, causing it to just be annoying since you sometimes won’t get the bonus damage on your Eviscerate.
Theoretically the way that from-stealth only FW would force a rotation on you is that ideally you’d want to start and end your Dance with an Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot. That’s not nearly as egregious as Veins IMO.
Personally, I more so have a problem with Beta/PTR’s version of FW than that I desperately want FW to be from-stealth only. That is to say, I’d rather have no FW than the current iteration.
If they want us to have/apply a debuff on the enemy which increases our damage I would like Haemorrhage to return and just apply a debuff which increases our damage by x% for y seconds.
No bleed. Just a debuff.
It’ll still have high uptime like FW or SV, but we’re in control of it. If we target swap we can just make that our first combo point builder on the new target.