I really don’t like the direction Subtlety Rogue is heading in Midnight, and honestly, the biggest issue for me is the oversimplification of the spec.
Sub Rogue has always been about depth: planning, timing, positional awareness, and executing a kit that rewards mastery. That complexity is exactly why many of us fell in love with the spec in the first place. Stripping it down into a more generic, low-decision rotation removes what makes Sub feel like Sub.
I keep seeing the argument (explicitly or implicitly) that this is being done because of console support or controller-friendly design. If that’s truly part of the motivation, then I strongly disagree with the approach. If consoles need a more streamlined experience, that’s fine — but don’t redesign the core game and long-standing class identities around that.
If needed, make a separate version of WoW designed specifically for consoles. Don’t change the PC version and the classes we’ve played and enjoyed for years to accommodate a completely different input method.
We like specs that take time to learn and reward skill expression. Please don’t erase that depth in the name of accessibility. Accessibility should be additive, not reductive.
Sub Rogue doesn’t need to be “fixed.” It needs to stay interesting.
People have been claiming for years that WoW was being changed to be put on console. This is a tired argument with no proof to back it up. WoW might be coming to Xbox’s next ‘console’ with the caveat that the next Xbox is sounding extremely likely it will just be a gaming-ready PC box, much like Valve’s Steam Machine. That means mouse and keyboard compatibility.
You can definitely argue about class identity and rotation all you want though - that’s valid. I know some Rogues liked the complicated nature of juggling Shadow Dance, SBlades, Flagellation, Symbols, Danse Macabre, etc. Personally I disliked it and found Subt was far, far too invested in doing all of its damage in its SBlades window with super extreme feast-then-famine, but that’s me.
Personally I’m hoping for a bit of a revamp of the final section of our spec talents as they are kind of a mess between super-mandatory passive DPS talents and ultra underbaked talents (looking at you Goremaw’s Bite).
You’re right that there’s no solid proof this is about consoles. My main concern is less about consoles and more about the overall simplification direction.
I totally understand not liking how Sub was extremely tied to the Shadow Blades window and the feast-or-famine damage profile. That was a real issue for some players. But to me it feels like instead of smoothing that out while keeping depth, a lot of the decision-making layers just got removed.
What worries me is what I’m already seeing in game. I queued a battleground recently and had 7 rogues on my side and 8 on the other. The next BG was similar. That kind of spike in representation usually happens when a spec becomes much easier to pick up and execute.
That’s not automatically bad, but it does suggest the barrier to entry dropped a lot. And when that happens, it often means the skill ceiling drops too. The spec used to reward juggling Dance, Symbols, Blades, Flagellation, Danse Macabre, etc. Whether someone liked that or not, it undeniably created skill expression. Now it feels much more streamlined and forgiving — which lowers the ceiling.
I’m not asking for the old extreme burst stacking or messy talent rows back. I’d love a cleanup of the bottom talents as well. I just don’t want Sub to lose what made it feel technical and rewarding to master. There’s a big difference between refining complexity and flattening it.
Sub used to feel like you were actively managing a toolkit. Now it feels much more scripted.
I think Sub was even more simplified during early Legion to be honest.
If they add in something optional for players to use during downtime Sub would be perfect as it is. Also I think people are glossing over the Apex because they are passives but those do add a layer of complexity. In before someone says you do not need to track this. Understanding how shadow techniques works with Ancient Arts is pretty important for Sub’s Apex. If you are in beta you know.
I couldn’t say why, but Ninjas and Vipers on FFXIV are interesting enough and its a console based system, if wow is truly “moving towards consoles” the devs REALLY should look at ffxiv. however i’m honestly about to request a return for midnight. i went into a M+ dungeon and did top damage hitting 2 buttons, it felt shallow and unearned, 0 Decision making, 0 Skill expression, ST, Shadow strike/Eviscerate, AOE Shuriken storm/black powder. There’s no reason TBCC classic specs should have more complexity than a retail
Retail gave up the “adventure” feel for an “arcade” style gameplay a long time ago. I still loved playing retail for the fast paced complex rotations and the M+ environment. but now i might as well just stay on TBCC since retail wont even have that
as a ninja main, and viper enjoyer when I did play xiv. I think the hardest part of the reality of things is that both of these games function vastly different on a fundamental level.
xivs rotations are super hard locked, especially during leveling until you unlock the next ability in that rotation, while wows is more of a priority list of do’s and don’t in situations of whens, after you have your full kit.
another thing to absolutely keep in mind, is that part of xivs rotations are heavily into more Ogcd gameplay compared to wow. most of wows ogcds are a utlity or a big CD most of the time, xiv is a constant gcd stream weaving in ogcds.
if we compared Ninja to Rogue, ninja doesn’t have to suffer the energy game since we build our resource to spend it on our ogcd Bhavacakra or Bunshin while still weaving mudras after our 1>2>3, there is no downtime for Ninja where as for Rogue, we are locked into the energy economy, with very little to no ogcd gameplay to lean into.
“it felt shallow and unearned, 0 Decision making, 0 Skill expression, ST, Shadow strike/Eviscerate, AOE Shuriken storm/black powder. There’s no reason TBCC classic specs should have more complexity than a retail”
I couldn’t agree more with you sir , ^ this 100%
My comment about that was the assumption that by simplifying classes they’re easier to pick up on controller. i was pointing out that ninja and viper are both fast paced with relatively decen button counts and they are fine on FFXIV
IF blizzard is simplifying rotations for console accessability they really don’t need to. it’s not really about them being similar. it’s about how easy and quickly you can press buttons on a controller vs keyboard and ffxiv shows it can be done well
Honestly if i don’t return midnight i might be swapping to a Feral druid and a Shadow priest. but it’s just insane that i basically need to do it out of necessity instead of want
Yes, it was feeling like a real sub-rogue. Right now it feels like playing a scripted class. Almost like finding yourself a demon hunter in a bg using the single-button rotation while you are using it too. You just clash and hope for the best.
Listen I don’t care if the class is somewhat mechanically broken, anything is more engaging than sub for me, and feral was one of my alt classes, it didn’t feel “too” bad when i did a few dungeons, but the over pruning is just disgusting across all classes
So. Sincere question here: for those unhappy with how Subtlety is currently playing, what do you WANT to see changed to make the spec more enjoyable for you?
Is losing Rupture the key issue? Are you wanting some kind of proc button to have to periodically press? Are you looking for more burst buttons to manage during SDance / Sblades?
sub feels like its in the same area that outlaw is. the burst button doesn’t really feel like a burst button anymore. sure it does big dam but then its quickly back into a lul. sub feels more like hills and valleys at least consistent ones where as outlaw feels like slopes going up and down and not that deep or high or slopes either.
neither really feels like that they hit a “peak” with how quick you can get back into that “window to dump damage”.
not saying rupture is the key issue, but it just genuinely gave something else to do or think about to add on to the layers of the cake. the sprinkles if you will, we are missing the sprinkles that make the cake that lil bit more appealing to eat.
hopefully it wont stay like this obviously, and hopefully its not just tier sets to bandaid fix or give the illusion of growth.
granted with all of that said. im not mad at the changes, disappointed with some approaches sure with how the rotation feels lackluster as a long time player of the class, a sub main by no means, but i do play the other specs when i tire of outlaw and just wanna change things up.
the specs feel very approachable with perspective of people that don’t wanna touch rogue because its perceived as this mountain of busy work and expression via CCs and utility and damage windows, etc. but for a long time player, its reminding me of simpler times, I feel like I’m actually doing and thinking more playing my sub rogue on MoPC than I am with current retail sub.
If it were sincere you wouldve read theough the multitude of threads where you spent time criticizing statements you clearly did not understand. The statements regarding what needs to be changed were posted numerous times and each time you brushed it off with a “but damage is good, casual players love it” like some tone deaf dev.
, lol