Sub Rogue is in dire need of a rework. Sub has continued to be gutted for the past 10+ years and received useless/minor/boring filler abilities/modifiers to replace things that used to be core to the specialization.
Staring off:
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Can we please get some type of sustain damage? Give us back garrote/hemo/ sanguinary veins and make our bleeds and backstab do damage again
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Revert shadow dance to a single 1 minute cd (having this much control with CDR on shadow dance and multiple dance charges is a core issue of the spec and a reason why we can’t be allowed to do sustain dmg)
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Can we remove the 10+ modifiers and just get back to the basics? There’s no point in having Shadow dance+ prey on the weak+ nightstalker+ deeper strat+ all the other % damage buffs we have to talent into
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Remove gimmicky abilities such as shadowy duel/secret tech
Conclusion:
At the end of the day I feel that many people loved the design of MOP Sub Rogue. Blizzard has continued to remove many things that people loved about it so much. Getting back to the basics of having hemo/bleeds/slice n dice/SV helping buff our sustain damage and having dangerous 1 min burst/control windows with shadow dance, big ambushes and cold blood eviscerate crits is what was so satisfying about the spec. Hopefully blizzard will address this dying spec that has needed a rework for sometime now in the near future.
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
13 Likes
Hemo + sv have to make a return. They are reworking retribution who has no problem slamming people but have some fascination with keeping us Subtlety rogues in this odd crescendo.
It’s time to return to the ways of old, wicked backstabs, 1 dance, sanguinary vein and rupture with garrote to help out and maybe deadly throw. No more stun bot nonsense.
Combat and Assassination doing dance and FW while maintaining their status identity is a slap in the face to all Subtlety rogues.
It’s not a complaint, it’s just incredibly frustrating we are once again centered around an ability. Say assassination only did major work during shiv windows, they would be angry too.
Enough is enough- return our kit to us. There is no reason to be centered around dance.
4 Likes
In PVE the current best builds revolve around 1 charge dance and have somewhat sustain damage outside of dance with gloomblade+lingering shadows. So right now sub is the closest to what it used to be in quite a long time.
I do agree with some of your points though, I do miss the old playstyle of sub.
1 Like
Proposed changes
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sanguinary vein vs dark shadow (choice node) different styles.
-hemorrhage on left side while gloomblade goes to the right side for those that want that style
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improved find weakness back to what it used to be 70% in wrath. Dance being on a hard 1 min . Enveloping Shadows / deepening shadows could move deep into right side justifies good find weakness
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SV applied by hemo/ rupture/ garrote provided we talent into serrated blades like the old days
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crimson tempest could return to have SV on aoe where shadow side focuses on current black powder interactions
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remove gimmicks so our actual core abilities do good damage
Subtlety identity is augmenting debuffs on targets and that gave us the upper hand instead of dance interactions.
Augmenting find weakness in different ways , different builders of your choice, different finishers and how YOU choose to do stuff should be the focus.
Don’t like hemo? Go with gloom blade
Like more shadow dance stuff? Augment the cdr stuff out in the right side.
Want old serrated blades and making garrote and rupture while slapping the frick out of someone and maintaining SV till you decide you want to dance at a timely moment? — hemorrhage and fat backstabs are back.
Either way, we need options to customize how we do stuff. Would really be sick to hear from the rogue developer team.
4 Likes
I dig it dude, the point is press only your normal attack buttons on any class. Lingering shadow should just be an augment for good gloomblades / backstabs - not because we danced.
Those builds still revolve around thistle tea / skipping FW / skipping utility like dance to rely on 2 min vanish to strike to another target/ seal fate to get back 1 dance (without seal fate 1 dance would be trash since Shadow techniques is as reliable as requesting a melon to teach you how to backflip).
They can preserve the magic show nonsense on the right side of the tree for those who enjoy whatever the frickle doodle doo we currently are and go back to proper old Subtlety on the left.
if they set dance as a 45s hard CD
- buffed gloom / backstab to be consistent good damage (nothing ridiculous, just to keep up and not fall behind)
- rupture be nice w blood splatter / hemo/ sanguinary vein
- sanguinary vein for constant debuff w garrote / hemo/ rupture to make that target take even 20-25% damage
Every damn actual Subtlety rogue would be happy. Nothing is fun waiting for cds while shaman are shooting storms out of their butts or retribution paladins on psint thinner hitting everything constantly for 120k+, judgement 80k, templar nonsense for 89k.
We have been conditioned to “ secret technique good, backstab badd”.
Assass has a crap ton of stuff and Combat that just buff X by this by picking it. A lot of us would like gloomblade / backstab (if they improved FW but prob won’t happen) to smack people while we are waiting for dance to come back around. Not gimmicks and trying to “one shot” things as that isn’t healthy for the game. Every time we are solid - they tune it down and allow Ferals to bleed the crap out of you while " I’m waiting on dance" or waiting for next DR and our team dies then curses the sun and everything in between.
I’m not advocating for changes of anything people enjoy out of current Subtlety on the right side, people can have that.
I’m requesting that OUR choices matter in the ways of old that many of us enjoy and never should have been pushed out of in the first place.
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Planned execution could literally be improved ambush from Wrath I think it was (INCR Crit chance of ambush / Strike with 15% increased damage as it was then (2/2).
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Invigorating Shadowdust could easily be Serrated Blades (Increased bleed damage and 9% armor reduction).
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Rotten could be Sanguinary Vein for 15-20% , dunno just throwing out any idea to preserve our way of life.
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Shadow blades damage should just be thrown back into the class. No reason for a 2 min CD on top of all your other CDs to be the sole reason why someone dies. Meanwhile evokers nuke people with deep breath and Azure strike hitting for harder than anything in dance do. Rework or get rid of that.
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Energetic Stabbing should be back (passively generating energy ticks) instead of shadow technique slot machine.
My point is, it should be up to us in the end how we want to diversify ourselves with the return of these large sick trees, not pushed into “This is it”.
1 Like
Still on this horse and wont give up.
Bring back hemo, buff consistency, bring back any form of wod SV.
1 Like
Bump, I’d love getting back wod/mop sub rogue. Remove symbols of death, and secret tech. Bring back energetic stabbing, sang veins, and honor among thieves. The addition of garrote, hemo, and old school backstab would add so much synergy to the class. Also what happened to our water walk?
2 Likes
that sure is alot of words.
im having alot of fricking fun with sub atm. so booo to your rework!
but bring back hemo
water running went away with the expansion although water walking device from engineering (30 sec cd I think it was) solves that.
They won’t leave gimmicks alone for long (again), Eviscerate should be the focus of our finishers anyway - not a 1 min cd + cdr -
The thing is both styles CAN exist, the left side of the tree can compensate for the rework many of us enjoy while those who like this current digs can stay with that if they choose.
Many rogues have a lot to say, it’s not fun to be given gimmicks like reprimand/ sepsis / flag and depend entirely on a 6-8 sec window to do ANYTHING impactful. That’s why people ran to classic and when MOP comes out they will run to that too and Cataclysm despite how many people talk trash about it.
( rogues were still rogues then, now we depend on nonsense instead of our actual kit feeling good).
1 Like
Gimmicky spells like secret tech aren’t fun
1 Like
Agreed, and to add on CORE kits of Subtlety abilities/ talents as well as other important notes:
- Hemorrhage
- Sanguinary Vein**
- Backstab (not completely sold on gloomblade instead of fixing FW as it should be)
- Garrote + Rupture (heavily used where every rogue counted on that fighting plate and knocking shields down off stuff when we couldn’t catch up)
- Fat Find Weakness (50% at least) not this watered down nonsense (30%)that we share with all rogues now. The weak FW is part of the reason backstab and eviscerate hit for trash other than being undertuned on purpose.
- Real Shadowstep where it broke roots and increased damage by 20% on the next ability (step is shared with all rogues now)
- Real Premeditation although the new version is fine but marked for death turned into that (all rogues have access to premed now if you think about it)
- Cheat death (All rouges have it now which is fine and don’t really care about)
- Preparation
This brings me to my next point: Subtlety did not gain a single dang thing, only stripped of OUR core abilites from Legion forward which is trash.
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lost our garrote and had to fight for rupture back (itS aSsAsSinAtioN) - that’s bs, it’s a rogue tool
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lost gouge and had to fight back for it ( iTs A cOmbaT rOguE AbilIty) - that’s bs, also a rogue tool
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We share everything across the board now, the only difference in rogue kind should be what you the player picks for your toolkit. People scream “don’t homogenize us” but we were different then due to how we approached smoking fools. Our kits were different and now our clone ferals have every rogue passive, ignore no armor and do bleeds and bites harder than any if our abilities. All while goofing off in bear form as you are running to wait on a dr.
We Subtlety rogues are once again locked behind gimmicks while sharing anything of our “identity” with other rogues and encouraged to forget about the past and what made us great instead of a stun bot for team mates.
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Bring back fat backstabs out of the box, no more (when/after you dance crap)
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Bring back dance just being a tool to do damage, not depending on dark shadow nonsense. You were like ahhhh yeah motha flubber when you used it in times prior, now you’re like ahhh hope no one ccs my only time to do anything.
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garrote has to return, whoever took it out due to whining sucks for not standing up for us
Tldr:
Bring back Hemorrhage + Sanguinary Vein, crank up Find Weakness, make backstab filthy, and give us our kit back. People can pick what they want / don’t want and we can go back to doing damage without relying in SL nonsense and other things no one asked for. If we don’t fight for our kind then no one will and we will remain this way.
2 Likes