To preface this, I am not a die hard rogue main. I do think it is what I want to main come DF and I have mained it in past expansions. With the addition to shadow dance in the class tree allowing all 3 specs to utilize it, sub just seems to have lost its identity to me. The thing that gave it a unique flavor. I am wondering if anyone else agrees?
To me the most fun I have ever had playing this game was as a sub rogue in Legion using death from above; allowing us to funnel all of our aoe damage into priority damage. it felt dynamic and potent. And I would be lying if I said I didnt feel like a bamf while doing it.
While we still have shadowdance and ultimately not much has changed, sub just does not seem to have any unique flare anymore. I still enjoy playing it tbh. But just makes me sadge a little.
Edited for typo
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well sub rogue lost DFA in BFA and shuriken combo after s1 bfa. So youâre abit late on this.
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i wish ShadowDance had stayed sub only.
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Yes I understand that. Mentioning DfA was more along the lines of something I wish they would bring back to add some unique flavor back to the sub specialization. But ultimately if you read the post itâs about losing shadow dance as a uniquely sub tool. Thanks for your comment.
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Realistically I started this thread to open up discussion as to where the rogue community at large would like to see the identity go. What ideas there may be to give the spec something of its own in terms of playstyle altering mechanics. Or if people whole heartily disagree with my view of the situation. Please change my mind. Explain why and what is giving sub a unique identity.
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Yah, I completely agree. I donât know where it could really go. At this point, the only thing making it unique is shadow magic. Which, I am not a huge fan of. I do like the idea of using magic. But, not offensively. Dealing shadow damage is weird.
I have very conflicted feelings on Shadow Dance being in the class tree. On one hand, Shadow Dance is such a powerful ability, it could be argued the other specs will never compare in PVP to Subtlety without it. On the other hand, itâs just such a core Subtlety ability. Subtlety is suppose to be the âStealthâ spec.
It also really bugs me that nothing huge from the other specs was shared. I mean, Assassination didnât have anything super cool, I suppose. But, why the heck isnât Adrenaline Rush in the class tree? I mean, who the heck wanted Thistle Tea and Echoing Reprimand to not only be in the class tree, but be capstone talents!? Sorry, bit off topicâŚ
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Sub rogue lost its identity when Hemo was removed. And then again in Legion too.
Kinda late to the party.
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Sub lost the bleed identity in Legion when Sin stole Garrote and then lost the Shadow Dance identity in DF. It really feels like you didnât choose a spec when you choose to play Sub now.
IMO, Sin should only have poisons, and Sub should be the bleed master. Oh, and get rid of Shadow Dance from the class tree.
Edit: To be clear, Iâm not saying only Sin should have poisons and only Sub should have bleeds. Iâm saying that only Sin should have the strongest poisons, and only Sub should have the strongest bleeds.
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Poisons are a core Rogue thing, though. Rogues are the only class with them. So, limiting to a single spec never sat well with me.
Iâve also never been fond of the bleed focus. Feral Druids already do that pretty well.
In my mind, Subtletyâs theme should be about Stealth. Which, it historically was. The only time bleeds ever took over was in Cataclysm. But, before then. Itâs talents were generally focused around buffing Stealth, buffing stealth attacks, and higher access to Stealth and stealth attacks.
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I feel Shadow Dance should just be removed entirely or reworked. I feel Sub identity should be about positioning conditionals that change the kit interactions.
Examples Iâve given elsewhere, Backstab continues to have itâs minor throughput bonus behind targets, but applies a small DoT when in front (there is a Cataclysm joke about a mob missing a Backstab, causing you to bleed).
Another example was Eviscerate behind a target deals an additional X, and Eviscerate in front of a target causes your next finishing move to deal an additional X.
The mastery reworked to amplify positional components by a percentage. And then the Shadow Dance rework allowing you to get ALL positional bonuses regardless of position during the buff, replacing Shadow Blades as the major damage cooldown for Sub.
I always felt this would bring it more in line with a traditional thief and classic rogue positioning, and push it a little further from the legion reworked shadow wizard with a knife.
I like that Backstab is around 20-25% of my damage breakdown with the current identity (single dance symbols build with Seal Fate). It bothers me that swapping to Gloomblade is a 20% overall damage increase and Gloomblade (Backstab) moves up to 30-35% of the breakdown. I wish Backstab was that good when simply behind the target, but the armor ignore of Shadow Damage is too good.
Side note: Did you know that your Shadow Clone damage mirrors unmitigated damage? Their hits are always bigger by 30% because they arenât affected by armor.
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This actually is a very interesting Idea. I kinda like it.
But maybe im the odd man out when it comes to the shadow magic. I donât hate it.
honestly I just wish they would give us the DfA playstyle back. It felt so good. And there was a bit of nuance to it using your SoD mid air to maximize its uptime after you land and give you time for an extra evicerate. Either way doesnât seem that style will ever come back.
So I think what you posed would be an interesting, play altering mechanic that would make sub feel different than the other specs.
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I donât think itâs that odd. In fact, I find more people appreciating the Naruto Shadow Rogue idea more than the Thief variants. Itâs just not for me.
I liked some of the shadow effects from Legion, the Akaari fragments and cloned Shadowstrikes. They were neat âadd-onsâ to the spec. I think the problem for me came from making the hook or gimmick (shadow magic in a physical melee kit) the bread and butter and dropping the core idea of Thief first. Ambush was swapped for a built in Shadowstep, Gloomblade outperforms optimal Backstab positioning despite skill differential, etc.
Also, I donât feel the mastery has been correct since it released. Executioner always said âassassinâ to me, and now that Potent Poisons is Potent Assassin, it seems thereâs some consensus that exclusively poison was lacking something for that spec. I do agree with OP though that moving bleeds to Assassin took part of the Sub identity.
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Shadowblades should have been in the general tree and left shadow dance for Sub Rogue.
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When i look back to the beginning of Shadowlands sub was none existent in PVE content, it had gained a little bit of traction thx to âMark of the Master Assassinâ and that came from PVP aspect to which some applied it in PVE content and was fun up until that got nerfed and then back to being a dead spec in PVE. Not only is sub the least created and played class but majority of sub players are involved in PVP and that folks is the ultimate outcome of what ur seeing going into DF. Means sub is heavily utilized in pvp and if that happens to be the majority of sub players development will always swing to favor majority.
With that said i would argue Sub came long way throughout the SL exp were each season for me felt like improvement when dmg was lacking SOD answered the call with EoN, when 1-3 target cleave was nonexistent Tier set comes to mind were at that point sub was even competing with WW monks for S tier in M+, Kyrian felt good with how it scaled our EoN and the increased up-time of Shadow Dance was welcomed. Honestly Sub never played better and felt smoother than SL with Tier set and Kyrian covenant.
Sub lost its identity with the Legion rework.
Hard pass. DfA and its playstyle can stay gone.
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There is a SHADOWDANCE build with outlaw⌠so yeah⌠there is a identity problem.
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Sub Rogue needs something to stand out again because it feels like a watered down Rogue spec.
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Maybe theyâre planning a rework like combat got reworked into outlaw?
what was subâs identity before legion.
Damage being tied to FW uptime rather than being reliant on dance, and being a god at single target burst windows. Because of damage being more focused on find weakness I feel like old sub rogue was far more stealth oriented, now in order to any sort of dmg you need dance on top of other cds.
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