Sub Oversimplification

[Diecruxx-bleeding-hollow (Diecruxx)]

Sub Rogue has been oversimplified to the point it is not engaging and very boring. There is another Sub rogue thread but I think it is important to highlight this issue specifically before it is too late. Guessing we are well past that though.

I understand Symbols of Death was a little over the top but it provided an outlet to make meaningful decisions during your rotation. With that gone, along with rupture, it is literally Shadow Strike(w/Dance) and Eviscerate. Use Secret techniques and Shadow Blades on CD. Mostly a 2 button rotation.

Backstab/Gloomblade feel horrible to press and have an odd negative feedback loop with talents. Because Backstab feels bad to press it feels good the window where we are forced to use it is short, but on the same token, it makes a bunch of talents worthless because the small window to use backstab reduces the talent value. Weird.

Make the rotation less boring:

Revert Rupture Prune: “Rupture and shuriken storm had muddled identities.”

To address the conflict referenced above:

• Make rupture pure single target.
• Then for flavor, remake Follow the Blood DS talent to have Shuriken Storm apply rupture (at X%) to all targets instead of increasing shuriken storm and black powder damage.

Reasons to revert rupture prune:

@Xæthron-stormrage

The reason Rupture worked is because it broke up that cadence from the highs by providing you something to keep up during the lows (which then paid off during the next high).

@Knocrogue-crushridge

I mostly just would want it back for PVP reasons.

Along with the cadence and the mechanic walkout protection rupture provided, It also gave sub something to track but didn’t overburden the rotation. Less boring.

Revert Dark Brew
If we get a bleed from rupture back we would naturally want the option to turn it into shadow damage with dark brew again.

Other Ideas to make the rotation less boring.

Revert Clear the Witnesses:

• The Midnight Clear the Witnesses is a very boring % damage increase to Shuriken Storm. Keep the current version but make it the button glow when the proc is active. This gives us another useful button and adds a lot of flavor to the rotation. Less boring.

Rework Goremaw’s Bite (few ideas):

• Make it a true 45 second CD that is worth pressing and gives us a fun moment between Shadow Blades.
• Name sounds bleedy so have it do its own shadow bleed or interact with rupture?
• Other idea?

If anybody has other ideas please share them. Really dont want Sub to become the BM Hunter of melee.

[Xaethrona-stormrage]

Its definitely far too late. I already got a priest ready.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

Priests are worse of than Rogues for Midnight. The pruning hit those specs harder.

@Diecruxx-bleeding-hollow

If anybody has other ideas please share them. Really dont want Sub to become the BM Hunter of melee.

It is a repeat of Legion but this is what many PVE players in the Rogue community asked for. Time will tell if this was the right decision. To double down on the Legion design.

I think Goremaw’s bite is a great place to introduce a DoT mechanic for game play. Or, as I have suggested turn Backstab into Hemo 2.0 because that is what Backstab is at this point because A. It doesn’t do a lot of damage B. It is a filler to help build comb points until you are in stealth/shadow dance for Shadow Strike. Same way you used Hemo as a filler until you could dance or stealth to use Ambush.

[Leenja-dragonmaw]

So I just came to the realization Rogue players just want their cake and eat it too.

If sub is too simple, luckily we have Outlaw which everyone complains has too much to do.

You want rupture? Play Assassination.

You don’t want to deal with RTB or want a simpler spec? Play sub! (or Assassination)

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

I don’t think so. Rupture or bleed mechanic isn’t going to make Sub more complex but gives more fun game play value beyond just tunneling target 1. Most of Sub’s complexity form DF/TWW was tied to Invigorating Shadow Dust and lining up damage windows with Find Weakness. Those two issues are no longer the case.

Outlaw right now on beta is close to Combat which is about simple to play but hard to master due to nuances. That is why I say that Midnight Outlaw is basically Combat Rogue reborn mixed in with BFA Outlaw. Sustain damage that ramps up due to BTE damage buff stacks ala Bandit’s Guile Insight mechanic.

Sub was always the bleed spec truthfully and Assassination occupying the bleed and poisons space means it has a monopoly on damage variety through physical bleeds, nature damage, along with physical damage. With that said Sub has been given more shadow damage to go along with poisons and Find Weakness which helps somewhat.

[Meca-lothar]

that’s because back in ye olden days. when things were right and true. rogues did have their cake, and ate it too. now there’s no cake, the cake is a lie.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

Back in the day Rogues had a variety of finishers for different situations.

SND to switch targets or increase attack speed if sitting on a target.
Expose Armor for group play or against armored targets.
Deadly Throw for a physical slow application. With PVP bonuses/talents it was also an interrupt/silence.
Eviserate/Envenom were direct damage melee finishers
Rupture was to bypass armor and to put a longer physical DoT on a target.

Currently Rogue finishers are sub divided between Rogue specs when they were class wide so this is why I suspect Assassination will continue to feel the most complete and popular of Rogue specs.

Secret Tech is not a bad finisher but it is a highly specialized finisher designed to be used during Shadow Dance. Kspree fails as a finisher and BTE finisher actually is a close approximation of Deadly Throw/Expose Armor but not exactly.

I think that Assassination is in great shape with a variety of finishers and combo point generators. Sub is solid but the debate is ongoing with Rupture returning or not. And Outlaw feels like outside of BTE/Dispath it needs a come to jesus moment with Kspree because it is a weak finisher at the moment.

[Xaethrona-stormrage]

Lmao. Hes actually braindead. All rogue specs should be the same level of difficulty. This conversation has nothing to do with difficulty. The “difficulty” you see is actually your preference of play as each spec has its own playstyle. Its no question why you cant understand the rupture issue

[Leenja-dragonmaw]

You are such an angry guy lol

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

Rogue specs have always varied in difficulty.

I just think that Outlaw was too extreme in TWW which is why it is in a better place in Midnight. Sub and Assassination are doing better too.

That is why Midnight is a huge W for Rogues IMO.

[Nippys-arugal]

I am so over complicated rotations.

I’m pretty sure the direction they took when they nerfed the live outta addons was to grant players more brain power to being able to focus on game play rather than rotations.

[Alekzandar-emerald-dream]

Putting out there that if this game is still around in 5 years, I have no doubt that complexity will be worked into tons of classes, buttons will be added, etc.

That’s not to say that rogue won’t continue to get second/fifth-tier attention, but I think the simplification all classes are getting is necessary for inevitable complexity that will be baked back in. And, some sort of shadow-y rupture being brought back, even if it’s just for single target, to make things more engaging makes sense.

[Jujuba-zuljin]

WoW has been around for more than 20 years, there is no “if the game is still around in 5 years” lmao.

Also, WoW since its inception has always the fame of “mmo for grandpas” by the everquests sweaters, so im really glad is returning to its roots on the simplification part.

Hope that in 5 years, classes still remain simple, but with more creative/challenging boss encounters or stuff like mage tower, that will allow us to focus on the fight instead of glueing your eyes on the hotbars or addons and stuff that yell at your ears telling CD/ability X/y/Z are off cd and ready to go, or because it reached stack number whatever and then u can press said ability safely.

Nah, if i want unnecessary bloat with abilities doing the same thing, i would be playing FFXIV where you have rotation with 6 to 8 buttons, not including oGCDS that you press between the rotation + cds.

[Meca-lothar]

@Jujuba-zuljin

Nah, if i want unnecessary bloat with abilities doing the same thing, i would be playing FFXIV where you have rotation with 6 to 8 buttons, not including oGCDS that you press between the rotation + cds.

well that’s just not true, and really depends on what Job you are playing, as someone that played Ninja over there for a good while. its actually because of the Ogcds that actually make their rotations fun, and also it has an actual rotation, not just building and spending like rogue in wow. it was one of the highest APMs with its Ninjutsu Ogcd buttons to cast abilities and still was very much slow vs literally anything rogue has been in the last 5 years during adrenaline rush. cause they are like GIGA GCD locked in that game, and speeding up the GCD break point can really tank your damage so there is a fine line.

kind of like outlaw rogue and it needing a certain line of haste to not be miserable in energy.

wows rotations are far more freeform, XIVs rotations are static. you quite literally never change your rotation/opener and most of the time they are fitted to the actual fight designs length. so there is no real hung up downtime, its thematic combat. everything flows quite naturally.

but also keep in mind that XIV was also devd up to be console functional first. so 6 to 8 buttons actually isn’t a lot rotationally, but coming from wow classes that literally press 2 buttons and a 3rd because it procced while having 3 action bars full of buttons they don’t use during combat, sure I could see it being overwhelming to actually have to remember a real rotation and not just sliding your face across a keyboard and you pop wings and everything blows up.

also XIV for the longest time the gameplay was basically “2min CD meta”, IDK if anything has shaken that up recently but its way more crucial vs wows “pop lust here”. if you mess up your opener rotationally and dont pop your 2min when everyone else does then you basically can kiss your damage bye bye.

XIV is way more casual as well mind you which is why their rotations aren’t even complex they just seem long cause you gotta brain it out, they don’t work like wow does where everyone is proc based now, and there are priority lists of what to use depending how many stacks of what you have, etc etc. XIVs is more like 1>2>3 weave 1>2>3 weave CDs repeat. a dance, and if you miss a step that’s your boo boo.

now if you wanna talk like some openers are insanely long sure but you are using the full kit during the gameplay. think back to classic/vanilla shaman. wanna talk about bloat and a bunch of buttons? personally that’s what I think of when it comes to bloat.

comparing the games blindly like that while saying it has bloat is crazy.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

They always cave because the pruning never works because they always take it too far.

WoD, Legion and BFA are good example. DF and TWW were better received class design because it resembled closer to what WoW was during WotLK, Cata and MoP.

Midnight is trying to thread the needle between TBC and WotLK game play of easy to learn but hard to master. But I think they will eventually make classes more complex like WotLK and not as simple as TBC.

[Jujuba-zuljin]

the “2min” is still a thing, yosh P said they want change that for 8.0, but we shall see.

Now lets compare Ninja with Sub Rogue and why i find it funny when ppl say WoW is getting pruned because console.

Sub Rogue offensive buttons: Shadowstrike and Ticklestab for ST combo gen and shuryuken storm for aoe.

Then we have evis/rupt/secret tech/ black powder as CP finishers.

For cooldows we have Cold blood, Shadowblades, Symbols. shadowdance and “secret tech”

Now lets see how many buttons Sub Rogue actually have. Shadow strike and Ticklestab are one button really, Cold Blood get macroed into Secret tech, so another1 button. Same goes for shadow dance + symbols.

So a total of 8 buttons with cds and stuff, without cds, is just ticklestab and a finisher, so up to 2-3 buttons in your rotation mostly.

Now lets see ninja, each number i’ll display is a key you have to have on your hotbar, binded or not if you’re brave enough

1 > 2 >3 = ST energy and combo point gen

1 > 2> 4 = ST energy gen and combo point spender

5 > 6 = AoE energy and combo point gen

7 = ST energy spender (ogcd)

8= AoE Energy spender (ogcd)

then we have mudras, that you use mostly with your 2 min or 1 min cds up.

Mudras activates 4 additional buttons on your hotbar, keyword: add

so you have mudra1( M1), M2, M3 and m4( the button you press to fire off the mudra

But hey its not only that, its not just a matter of press them, you have to make combinations of then for stuff such as

M1 + M2 = ST,

M1 + M3 = strong ST only avaiable during one of the 1 min cds and so on, not going to list all combinations.

Then you 3 additional buttons as 2 min cds, 3 addional buttons as 1 min cds, 2 addional buttons that becomes avaibale after you hit the ST target mudra combo.

and 1 addional button of 90 sec cd.

So for basic stuff, ninja have 4 buttons on their rotation, or 2 buttons for aoe, pretty much dang close of WoW Rogue.

But when your cds are up? Oh boy, lets go, 16 diferent buttons to press/bind/memorize.

So yeah, so much prune because “console”, when the console mmorpg here, have almost the double of the buttons that you need to press in wow.

And that is only their offensive buttons. Not taking into account their utility/defensive/mobility, and ninja is a pretty mid in terms of buttons to press, compare it to dragoon where their basic ST rotation without cd is something arround 8 buttons in a loop constantly.

So yeah, like i said, if i want bloat, i would go play/stay in FF14, so kinda glad wow devs are making classes in general more simple with less buttons to press/align

[Meca-lothar]

@Jujuba-zuljin

why i find it funny when ppl say WoW is getting pruned because console.

I mean I didn’t say anything about this but pop off, games not getting pruned because of that. I said XIV was made with console in mind, so even if its a 10 button rotation it still works and isnt a problem and people still play it and clear ultimates.

5 years from now there will be just as many new buttons that will be around for the next round of reductions.

or at the very least, the common man will win and everything will be passive and you will only have 4 buttons to press and the game becomes league at that point.

@Jujuba-zuljin

So yeah, like i said, if i want bloat

just said all of that, even have the understanding. still call it bloat. I get it bro you just don’t like actual rotations and weaving ogcds and you wanna vibe off 4 buttons and 1 big CD and some procs. I get it.

@Jujuba-zuljin

compare it to dragoon where their basic ST rotation without cd

yes, a rotation. meaning you go through all the buttons and circle back around, rotating, using the kit as its designed. Im struggling to understand your logic. as I said they are static and nothing changes just because you have to press more buttons in a rotation doesn’t equate bloat.

and all of it works on a controller. I’m not trying to argue or say you are wrong, I’m saying you are comparing oranges to apples and then saying the oranges have more seeds, while the apples are nicer to bite into. Like yeah bro, that’s how it was made.

most of wows issue isnt even rotational. its now we are playing specs, within specs. hero talents are just an illusion of the spec on top of a spec, adding another layer of priorities and/or reactionary procs/uses within the gameplay of the class. know what Im saying? A Rogue > Outlaw > Trickster. instead of just playing a Rogue > Spec.

which is something xiv doesn’t have to deal with which is another reason why their rotations are all the more static and lengthy and engaging, there is no variances in play and if you mess up you take a hit to your performance unlike wow you can literally get carried doing less than tank damage.

like I tried to explain XIV is playing dance dance revolution with your fingers to a boss track, it just so happens you are fighting against a boss.

WoW is more like playing a Bop It. end of story.

and what do we think will happen with apex talents? is this a one off? or is it going to just be another crutch in the lack thereof proper tuning to the classes? adding more layers to the cake, doesn’t just make the cake taste better. passive gameplay equally turns the game shallow and boring.

[Jujuba-zuljin]

the console thing wasnt really aimed at you, just a thing a remembered when midnight announced the prune and ppl were flipping because “wow was going console” and then i remember ff14 having way more buttons to press than wow xD

As for the rest, fair enough. I think blizz will scrap the talent trees when the world soul saga is over and in place we might see the return of the style of “mop talent choices”, maybe something like diablo 4, idk, but i dont think the talent trees that we have now will carry over after the world soul saga is gone

[Knocrogue-crushridge (Knocrogue)]

@Leenja-dragonmaw

So I just came to the realization Rogue players just want their cake and eat it too.

Nah, there’s just different Rogue players that want different things. It’s like the Slice and Dice issue. There were players asking for it to be removed. When it was removed, a group popped up that wanted it back. Then, it was brought back and the other group came back to want it gone. It was never that “Oh, Rogues have no idea what they want! They want Slice and Dice and then they want it gone!!!”. No, it was that there were two groups of Rogue warring with each other over Slice and Dice and Blizzard ended up trying to find a middleground that made both groups happy.

Same goes for Rupture now. And, you know what? There will probably be something else in the future. Who knows what it will be. Maybe a group will come out as anti-Secret Technique and say “I just want to use Eviscerate! I hate managing this stupid cooldown!!!” or something. Then, they’ll come for Shadow Dance. And eventually, Subtlety will just have two buttons. Shadowstrike and Eviscerate. Lmao

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

Pruning never works for any class in WoW. I have been explicit about this for a long time.