Outside of shadow dance the spec lacks sooo much damage and falls behind in raids and dungeons quickly, backstab needs like 100% damage buff if from behind to make it worth using.
The damage just needs to be buffed out of shadow dance so we can keep up in raids and dungeons
I disagree. Giving them crazy burst, with great sustain would actually get them nerfed again.
I know your talking PVE, but can you imagine how much people would cry with sub having crazy burst, control, AND sustain in arenas? People cried because of our burst with ER, look where that got us…not only was ER nerfed, but also CB and Sub…
With two charges of SD, you really shouldn’t have a lot of downtime in PVE. Remember, combo points decrease the cd of ST and SD.
Blizz intentionally gutted Sub outside of Shadow Dance due to Dance’s copiously high uptime. I am in favor of reducing Dance uptime so that Gouge and Hemorrhage can return baseline.
Outside of dance sub can’t kill an egg in arena LUL
Build-Burst is a spec playstyle type.
Arcane Mage is a similar play style as a Sub Rogue.
Sub’s Single Target is okay and its AoE is okay… the problem is those fights are rare.
Castle Nathria is primarily 2/3 target Cleave… Sub is useless at that. Most melee specs have some form of splash damage, passive cleave aura or abilities just hit 2 or 3 targets.
DH, Monk, Shaman, Warrior, DK, Surv… outlaw… They all have passive cleave of some sort or their abilities just naturally hit multiple targets.
Sub has Secret Technique on a 45 second cooldown… Sub can cleave once every 45 seconds if talented… that and toss a rupture.
The Sub Problem isn’t Shadow Dance… the problem is that Sub is not optimal on 8 of the 10 fights in Nathria.
Sub can and Single Target and AoE fine… but cannot cleave… which is like most of Nathria.
You have to realize that no spec is going to be optimal on all fights. It’s why people who play multiple specs perform better.
Also 2/10 is incorrect.
Sub is better for 4/10 fights and can be argued for innerva/council/sire as well.
Shriek/Xymoc/Hungering/Sludgefist are all pure single target fights.
Optimal is the key word… Sub isn’t good on fights that you need to run away regularly, 1 weak dot vs Outlaw having extended melee range along with actual ranged attacks and Sin having strong dots. Leaving Melee range for a Sub means damage stops.
Most melee passively cleaves or has abilities that naturally hit multiple targets. Sub doesn’t and Secret Technique barely counts as a cleave, a single attack on a cooldown that is only effective with other cooldowns being used.
There is a bigger problem with Sub being mid to lower tier DPS as a spec… Rogues have no Raid Cooldowns.
Warriors, Monks, Enh Shaman, DKs and DH’s all bring other things to the Raid beyond their Damage. All a Rogue brings is their Damage… maybe Shroud occasionally.
Rogues being sub-optimal at damage is a bigger problem than it is for other melee. If you are top on the meters as Sub in your Raid, that says more about the other DPS in your guild than it says about you.
Melee aren’t good at fights you have to run away from. You’re not going to be in range running chains out on sludgefist even as outlaw. Outlaw single target is better than it’s ever been but sub is still better single target damage.
That doesn’t change the fact that sub is still better on ST and I I listed four single target fights alone.
While I will agree they need to remove
Shroud and give rogues a raid cd or debuff but that won’t change poor performance.
Have to have some self accountability too.
Sub being better than Outlaw and Sin on ST fights doesn’t mean its good. Sin is just bad right now and Outlaw has never been good at ST.
I switch between Outlaw and Sub depending on the Boss, I understand that some Sub is better on some and Outlaw is better on others. That doesn’t change the fact that Sub isn’t great even on the fights its the best Rogue spec for.
Comparing Rogue spec to Rogue spec is fine but that really isn’t the discussion.
In a raid environment where 19 other people are depending on your damage to push the phase. Having a class who’s reason for having a raid spot is damage doing mid to low tier damage is a problem. Immunities are common now, so cloak really isn’t special.
Shadowlands Sub is like a couple of weeks away from being the same as BfA Sub. Tons of potential that didn’t play out.
While I don’t disagree with rogue in general needing damage buffs to validate a raid spot.
You’re parsing greens and blues my guy.
You should look at my weapons. For my ilvl my weapons are terribad meaning I will not parse well until I actually get weapons.
My parses have absolutely nothing to do with the state of Rogues. If you are trolling my logs then you clearly understand that logs exist and that Rogues are in a bad state. There is something very disingenuine about your statements.
My crap weapons and average parses have absolutely nothing to do with Sub needing buffs or not.
I looked at your gear. Even with bad weapons your parses are low.
Are you even reading what I post?
You have a 200 ilvl main hand. While not ideal that’s not the reason you have a 31 parse on hungering 
Sure, I’m a bad Rogue, I admit that, I never claimed to be a good Rogue or even a good player.
As I stated earlier, my bad parses have absolutely nothing to do with the state of Rogues. If I had all Grey Parses or all Orange Parses that has absolutely nothing to do with Sub needing buffs.
Go to Warcraftlogs, check out the statistics for each fight, even play around with the percentiles if you want a more specific break down.
This isn’t the Subjective statement of a bad who wants buffs because “wow is hard”. It is an Objective Reality based on statisical data that Sub needs Buffs.
::EDIT:: Oh, something else you can trash talk me on Snøz, I’m 40, so you can trash talk me because I’m old and play WoW.
And I clearly stated that rogues in general either need damage buffs or a raid cd/de buff to validate them getting a raid spot.
I only brought up your parses because it’s not as bad as you are claiming considering we aren’t even max renown yet.
You should dabble in some PVP my guy. Very easy to get atleast 220 weapons in PVP currently which is a huge help with drops being more scarce this time around.
(btw the bald blood elf look is extremely interesting. can’t say i’ve ever seen another one.)
Lets do a hypothetical.
Lets assume that Enhancement Shaman and a Rogue that plays a mix of Outlaw and Sub had equivilant DPS. Neither is a Raider Rank and both are pretty new to the Guild.
You have 19 people with raid spots, 1 spot is left for either the Rogue or the Shaman.
As a Raid Leader you are clearly going to bring the Enhancement Shaman because it brings more than just DPS.
Actually I would bring the rogue.
Then you would make a mistake. Having Windfury Totem alone for the other Melee is worth more than anything a Rogue brings if damage is equivilant.
Isn’t that exactly what Snoz said up above though?
Not at all. Just looking at the top parses has rogues doing more damage than enhance on most fights.
Rogues still bring an immunity and if the rogue is necrolord it buffs the melees main star by 4% every time sbs is used.