Dude, it doesn’t work like that. Canon is canon - you don’t get to “logic” your way out of it. As was explained to you, we know Sylvanas’s motive in Stormheim because we are straight up told her thoughts on it.
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I don’t think she says anything about genn attack in stormheim, she just says that genn might whisper into anduins ear and push for war.
It was saurfang who thought about stormheim which was part of his inner narration
“The boy in Stormwind will not start a war tomorrow,” Saurfang said.
Her eyebrows lowered. “With Genn Greymane in his ear? We will see.”
That was a concern, Saurfang had to concede. In the thick of the fighting against the Burning
Legion, Greymane had launched a mission to kill Sylvanas. It had gotten some of Stormwind’s few
remaining airships destroyed.
So again sylvanas doesn’t mention stormheim, saurfang thinks about it.
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Remember kids - Your unintended consequences are yours when they are perceived to have benefit, and not yours when the reverse is true.
Unless the person in question is on the other team.
Fun fact; Did you know that as per the CPPCG articles, specifically [c] and [d] but you could make a spirited argument for the others, Genn’s ‘taking your future’ motivation makes his attack on Sylvanas an act of genocide? We can argue over what defines a ‘birth’, but I think there’s serious legs to this.
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Anduin sent Genn to watch Sylvanas because he didn’t know what she was up to. Blizzard has given clear reference to why Genn attacked. It was revenge. Its as made clear they were going to attack her, no matter what, before they left. His monologue in the cut scene is all about revenge. He even names his troops the “Vengence” brigade.
Sylvanas trying to prevent her people from withering and dying off, is a reasonable thing for someone who it their queen and for a war chief. If an Alliance race was sterile and doomed to die off, attempts to fix that would be considered noble. The rest is just assuming the worst possible motive and assuming it is the true one.
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The Alliance rejected them out of hand from the very beginning. She actually approached the Alliance right from the beginning, and they killed her envoys.
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That’s not how it works. Read her short story.
Yes, I understand that if she uses all of her Lich King Val’kyr that she’ll return to her afterlife (as long as they are free, she is free), but her having the ability to constantly create new one’s (and powerful ones) would mean that she would NEVER have to put the remaining Lich King Prime’s in danger; as well as essentially making a near unlimited amount of Forsaken to protect them and her. Through the acquisition of Eyir, she’d essentially the ability to expand her “Bulwark Against the Infinite” far beyond anything that would be manageable for the Horde or Alliance. She would, in all respects in purposes, attain as close to immortality as she can attain (while remaining a Banshee).
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It ultimately wasn’t even Genn that decided it for him. People forget that because Stormheim is a more sensible reason and/or they’d rather place as much blame on the Alliance as they can.
Her Lich King’s Val’kyr can already create other, lesser Val’kyr though, which can raise basic Undead just as well as them. It’s already exactly what you’re talking about.
Getting the Val’kyr from Stormheim doesn’t do anything except allow Sylvanas to upgrade the Forsaken into greater Undead like her, the Dark Rangers, or Nathanos. Or possibly make them Stormforged, even. Point is it does nothing for her personal immortality nor does it expand her “bulwark” in a way that she can’t already achieve.
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Or … yah’ know, she could just finally pull off that pathetic mask of “Free Will” she wears (seriously, Sylvie herself has never really been bound by it, its “Optional”), and just turn all the Forsaken into Val’kyr. The things are stupidly powerful, she wouldn’t have to worry about any of them ever betraying her (unless the lantern was broken), and she doesn’t have to put up with “Her Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses” anymore (they’d be very useful, beautiful, very functional … slave angels).
Couple of things here. First, the idea that all Val’kyr are enslaved, or that the lamp could do so to all Val’kyr. For the latter idea, we have no proof. For the former, if that was the case, then Eyir was already enslaved. Second, the idea that she could turn Forsaken into Val’kyr. While I don’t think it’s impossible, we have no proof of that either.
Last, it’s worth noting the Val’kyr that serve Sylvanas do so willingly. They signed up for the job.
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unless she can make a pact with them like she did with the nine, which would help her keep her alive seeing as she needs 3 val’kyr to bring her back and she only has 3 left
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Why is the Horde is holding the Alliance to standards the Horde doesn’t even hold themselves to?
During an unprovoked attack Sylvanas also both tried to assassinate another nation’s leader - Genn himself - and also broke orders in both developing and deploying the Plague on Gilneas and beyond - which was against the against the Horde’s laws not only under Garrosh’s reign, but also under Thrall’s before him, as the Kor’kron Overseers that had been station in the Undercity by Thrall warned Forsaken players about doing any more work on the Plague.
Sylvanas was not forgiven after the Siege of Orgrimmar just for helping out, nor was the use of the Plague any sort of secret, as Varian specifically says at the end of the conflict:
- We need to investigate cleansing the plague from Gilnean lands so they can rebuild. We must contain Sylvanas.
From here on forward, the Alliance will be proactive. Never again can there be another the likes of Hellscream.
But the Horde under Vol’jin never addressed any of Sylvanas’ actions. Vol’jin never punished Sylvanas for anything she should have been held accountable for. No, instead, during Vol’jin’s rule, he actually withdrew the Kor’kron from the Undercity - once again, placed there not by Garrosh, but by Thrall - and gave Sylvanas even more freedom. Which is even more astonishing because Overseer Kraggosh was mutilated and killed during Vol’jin’s rule, and nothing was done about it, and this was flaunted in plain sight with his body openly displayed in a cage in the Undercity.
And the practically literal crowning achievement of Vol’jin’s reign on top of that? Vol’jin appointing Sylvanas Warchief. Another not just the likes of Hellscream, but worse than him, that makes him look like an amateur.
So in Varian’s own words, both against Sylvanas and saying the Alliance would be proactive from here on forward, the logic that people use that Sylvanas was justified in launching the War of the Thorns because of Genn’s actions at Stormheim that he was never punished for by the Alliance, Genn’s attempted assasination on Sylvanas at Stormheim was justified even before that because of Sylvanas’ actions at Gilneas that she was never punished for by the Horde.
They made the pact willingly though. It’s not like just having Val’kyr brought Arthas back to life.
Because your examples aren’t at all applicable for such a thing.
This happened before the Gilneans joined the Alliance.
The Alliance - And by proxy Genn - Agreed to a peace treaty with the Horde - And by proxy Sylvanas - after SoO. Even if she wasn’t forgiven morally, in terms of international politics the invasion of Gilneas ceased to be a valid issue for active attacks.
Whatever he said, the deal he ultimately made did not back those ideas up. He made a peace that did not punish Sylvanas. If you have a problem with that bring it up with Varian’s smoldering ashes, rather than trying to justify the Alliance reneging on a treaty using events that they had already chosen not to do anything about.
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Which doesn’t change that he was another nation’s leader and Sylvanas tried to assassinate him.
My examples are as applicable as I said they are. Hahahahahaha noted that Genn went unpunished by the Alliance, and Sylvanas went unpunished by the Horde first, proving their untrustworthiness in upholding honor.
I’d saying breaking a rule during war isn’t quite equivalent to breaking a rule at peace. That said, people could still disagree on these comparisons in regards to general severity. As far as how much of a threat Sylvanas has shown herself an inherent threat to peace compared to Genn.
I don’t think Sylvanas was right in her A Good War argument, to clarify. Just that this comparison isn’t quite so simple as far as putting them side by side.
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One should also factor that Anduin gave Genn leeway in his orders, as from the quest “Making the Rounds”:
- Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: We are to track them from a safe distance. We may engage, but only if the situation demands.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: I strongly suspect the situation will demand it.
As compared to Sylvanas completely going against orders, as from the quest “The Hunt For Sylvanas”:
- General Warhowl says: You sound very confident, your Majesty. I seriously hope you do not plan to use the Plague. Garrosh has explicitly forbidden it.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: You'd do well to watch your tone, General. Neither you nor Garrosh have anything to worry about. We've ceased all production of the Plague, as he ordered. We'd never deploy it without his permission.
General Warhowl says: I will deliver my report to our leader, then. By your leave, my lady.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Go with honor, General.
Warhowl exits the cathedral.
High Executor Crenshaw says: My Lady! Should I order my men to stop development of the Plague? Or are we to continue as planned?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: What kind of question is that? Of course we're deploying the Plague as planned! Let the Gilneans enjoy their small victory. Not even their bones will remain by tomorrow.
High Executor Crenshaw says: As you wish!
And, once again, this wasn’t even solely Garrosh’s law, as Thrall had the law in place as well, as we see when a Forsaken player talked to a Kor’kron Overseer and asked where the alchemy trainer was:
- Kor'kron Overseer: I bet you rotters thought you were pretty clever at the Wrath Gate, didn't you? Playtime's over. We're here to make sure you don't try anything.
Kor'kron Overseer: Doctor Herbert Halsey is who you want. Just don't try anything funny. Any more of that plague nonsense and you'll find an axe in uncomfortable places.
I don’t think that matters. 1. Because I don’t think there’s any defending Genn going against the spirit of what he was told. I don’t think he’s ever offered that defense, so it isn’t relevant to me. 2. This is about character perception as much as meta-knowledge. And I don’t think the specifics of the orders are well known.
Sure, that’s good evidence as to her untrustworthy nature. Same comment, though. I wonder how well known it was outside the Horde.
I think it does matter, specifically because punishing Genn has never come up from an Alliance perspective ever, as far as I can tell, which may imply that Anduin, an everyone else in the Alliance, doesn’t even think Genn did anything wrong, which could be a factor of the leeway in those orders.
In Before the Storm, Anduin remembers (or the narrative mentions, I forget) that he ‘forcefully rebuked’ Genn and Rogers for going against his command.