I heard we’re getting a cinematic about that once we reach Oribos.
Just don’t call it redemption. Redemption involves remorse and admission of guilt/mistakenly doing terrible things by higher power or alternative influence.
They redeemed Arthas, which was a mistake. He did commit genocide on his own peoole;willfully.
It now leaves the door wide open for a “convenient redemption” exploit that most people claim to get in religious interventions or family/friends intervention. Or claiming vindication for past behaviour.
Just some thinking here. But while I do not want Sylvy to be “redeemed”, nor do I expect her to be… It’s not that hard to think of a way Blizzard could bleach and sanitize her character from where it is now.
Hold on night elves, put the pitchforks down! I’m not saying it’s good or works. But think about how Blizzard writes things and tell me this doesn’t sound like a plausible bleaching of her sins, from their point of view!
You start with Edge of Night, when she makes her deal with the valks on-page and apparently a second deal with Tov off-page (or the valk deal didn’t happen now and it was all a Tov deal? Tov was the valks and the deal was different than explained on the pages? IDFK, whichever retcon they use).
You say when she agreed, Jailer shoved some evil in her to ensure she committed whole heartedly to his plan. The evil possessed her, explaining why she went from “just” using living experiments in her acid plague stuff to just full on genociding the northern EK whenever given the chance. “It wasn’t her fault, it was the evil Tov stuck in her butt! It made her do it!!”
… From there? You’re already GOOD TO GO. And then they can expand on it to explain away their inconsistencies.
Why did Sylvy post-death try to reconnect with her sister? Well friend, that was the good inner Sylvy conflicting with the bad butt-evil!
Why was Sylvy all proud to be warchief, but then said the Horde ain’t nothin’? Good Sylvy coming to the surface only to be pushed back by butt-evil!!
So on and so forth.
So then in the last patch, when Sylvy’s the penultimate boss, we shove out anima-powered hands in and pull out the butt-evil Tovval shoved in there, beat it up in the final phase, and rescue Waifu Sylvannas, who can now go off on merry adventures until Blizzard brings her back in another expansion.
You’re welcome for that absolutely confirmed canonical plot leak from patch 9.3.
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After reading that, all I have to say is…
https://media1.tenor.com/images/140030cf7692434b1b6d6466d9feee21/tenor.gif?itemid=4127198
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No redemption. Just vindication, (short-lived) and then she and arthas die. and Kel’Thuzad. and nerzhul. and anyone else that doesn’t believe in and therefore can’t be redeemed.
Requires remorse, which none of them have.
Exactly. Sylvanas absolutely has the capacity for redemption like everyone else, the problem is she’s allowed her innate selfishness and arrogance to control her thought process for so long that I just don’t see her overcoming them enough to WANT redemption.
To want to be redeemed, by necessity you must first acknowledge you are wrong and she will NEVER admit that. To her, her damnation to the Maw is the result of an unfair cosmic system instead of her own personal failings.
It truly speaks to her unfettered arrogance in the assumption that the whole universal system deserves to be destroyed simply because SHE, an insignificant speck in the grand scheme of said universe, didn’t get the outcome SHE thought she deserved.
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I mean… she should not of even been in the Maw. There was some shenanigans going to even get her there. If she wants to be mad at anyone it should be Zovval, who (directly or indirectly) seemingly pulled her out of the proper sorting process to extort her into making a deal with him to escape the place he forced her soul into. Concluding the entire system has to be rigged against her is just faulty logic.
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I think it would be a little more accurate to say she was trying to convert the Forsaken to her nihilistic viewpoint rather than save them. For all her purported love for her people, she exploited them more than anyone else as fodder until they had outlived their usefulness to her and the Jailer’s ultimate plan after her unfortunate slip at the gates of Orgrimmar.
From what I’ve seen at least, there doesn’t appear to have been any long term plans on her part to use the Horde as part of her crusade. It very much looks like she always intended to discard them based on what she told the loyalist Horde players in the aftermath, she just had to do it a bit sooner than she’d intended.
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I would agree.
Even if her shenanigans concerning the Wrathgate were accurate, prior to her doing a Peter Pan off Icecrown Citadel without the fairy dust one could convincingly argue she was not truly evil but more of a chaotic neutral character who did some highly questionable things in order to reach a noble goal.
Based on what we know so far from SL, at worst she would have been sent to Revandreth for a bit of…err, re-education and at best Maladraxx for her warlike spirit and emotional state. I’m hoping that the further we delve, the more it will become apparent that Zovaal tricked her into becoming his agent when her ultimate destination was actually meant to be one of the fore mentioned instead.
The thing is, one’s moral standing and deeds in life aren’t supposed to lead straight to the Maw anyway. By all indications the only way to get sent straight there is to be an existential threat to the rest of the Shadowlands that can’t be safely sent elsewhere.
So it seems fairly evident that as bad as her actions were and have been since, going to the Maw (or possibly being subjected to a very real-seeming representation of it by the val’kyr) wasn’t meant to be her immediate fate. Eventually? Maybe. But not without at least a good long stay in Revendreth undergoing punishment to determine if she was capable of repenting for her misdeeds.
I agree that we shouldn’t jump the gun and assume the way they’re going with her, but hey…
DRAENOR IS FREEEEEE /s
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That’s because it was the result of an unfair cosmic system, instead of her own personal failings.
Sylvanas isn’t the only one to be dumped into the Maw without some due process. Besides that we have souls that are just used as fuel for warlock spells and demonic machinery, or just obliterated in felfire.
Are you one of the Archon’s “trust the purpose” goons or something?
I wouldn’t call the Jailer an unfair cosmic system, he shouldn’t really have a say in the process at all. I do think she was tricked, but her own personal failings have ironically all but guaranteed she is now truly slated for the Maw given what she did in BfA.
And given that the Maw is supposed to be reserved only for existential threats to the universe, I think even Revendreth would agree her trying to break the entire machinery thereof and free the Jailer would more than qualify her for a perpetual stint therein.
True, but admittedly this seems to only be a fairly recent development and it all goes back to the Jailer’s shenanigan’s. The machinery of death was, as the developers stated, ‘broken’ and the Arbiter seems to have been largely cut out of what is a pretty important role.
Not going to lie about it being a perfect system, but on the other hand I certainly wouldn’t be arrogant enough to say the whole thing should be destroyed just because I didn’t get the result I wanted because that’s not how it works. And as far as we know, it’s seemed to have worked pretty well right up until recently so I think it would be a tad pretentious for us to judge it based on our own limited understanding.
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Talk about some emo sht, how some people like this chick is beyond me.
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You seem to be a bit preoccupied with Demons. What does the afterlife have to do with The demons of the Twisting Neather? Fel and Death are independent forces, and operate on different rules.
It is certainly true that Demons are guilty of preying on souls, and thus logic would tell you they are the natural enemy of the Shadowlands. The Paragon of Courage and her adherents would likely be the ones most often fighting demons off form chowing on souls meant to be collected, tbh.
And yeah Sylvanas did end up there without proper judgment from the Arbiter… because she was pulled there by the very guy she is now allied to and is working with to destroy the universe.
Illidan never needed redemption. The novel showed us he was good guy all along. We all just got deceived by Kil’jaeden into doing his dirty work for him.
Which is why I wont let her get off going around acting like an Illidan wannabe. I really hope I can stomp that hypocrite, in a future raid, and take those warglaives away from her.
Why would he go back to Azeroth? No one there cared, or wanted him around, there was nothing good waiting for him there.
No Xe’ra got blown to pieces for trying to get all Catholic Priest type on him against his will, and got what she deserved.
This is what I think about Maiev.
I think the crowning irony behind Sylvanas’ fall from grace is that she very likely WASN’T slated for the Maw but was tricked into thinking that was her ultimate destination by the Jailer. As other posters have mentioned, the Arbiter decides where people go after death and the Maw is not the first destination for truly evil souls but Revendreth where they attempt to redeem them.
If they can’t, then of course they yolo them off to the Maw and that’s that. But given what Sylvanas has done in BfA alone and taking into account everything she has done since Cataclysm has been to ultimately tear down the entire system of death and release an existential threat to the entire universe in the Jailer, I’d argue she has now consigned herself to the Maw because of her own actions in this regard.
In trying to escape a fate that very likely was never set in stone, she has ironically all but guaranteed it. Which, to me, is very much in keeping with my own belief in future knowledge in that knowing the future supposedly gives you the means to change it but in actuality would guarantee it through your own actions in trying to avoid it.
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If we were discussing a system of human government, I would probably agree. But a fallible afterlife system that works only when it works doesn’t “work well” imo.
I don’t think Sylvanas really would care where she “should have” gone, because regardless of where she was “slated” to go, she ended up in the maw. How you get to “hell” doesn’t really matter when you are in hell.
Unless you’re saying that in Edge of Night, she wasn’t actually in the Maw, and that was a trick too… which, I think is unlikely.
So, Blizzard is using Sylvanas to do Minority Report, but with the opposite concept? That’s pretty cringe to me.
I disagree–if she’s going to have been killed off earlier, the swan dive off Icecrown would have been more poetic.
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How many villains have we actually “redeemed”? Arthas, Garrosh, Deathwing, Gul’dan, Archimonde, Sargeras, the Old Gods, Kil’jaeden have definately not been redeemed. At most Kil’jeaden had a small epiphanic moment where he thought maybe Velen was right but that was it.