State of Frost Mage - Wishlist

Summary

Frost mage coming out of dragonflight saw its greatest rework to date for its gameplay loop, giving it iconic playstyle such as coldest snap and giving more identity to spells like glacial spike and ray of frost.

Going into war within alpha and beta, much of the development focus within the mage class was given to arcane and fire, as it was stated that you guys were largely happy with the DF gameplay frost had and didnt want to mess with it.

During this however, most classes and specs in the game received a massive overhaul to how talent trees are designed ~ with much choicer and more diverse of talents to choose for a given encounter or dungeon. Frost has been left behind in this regard, having very little agency or real choice on its talent tree. It has, by far, the least number of unique nodes and unique combination of choices in the game (not to mention it doesnt even have a choice node anymore). This wishlist is made in mind for what I believe to be the long term health of frost mage.

Challenges/Wishlist
Because it is currently the only competitive option, this list will be made with mostly Frostfire in mind. I will let someone else add color to the direction that spellslinger should go.

1. Talent Tree

Challenge:

As previously mentioned, frost mage currently has the most archaic tree in the entire game across all classes and specs. It has the least number of nodes, unique nodes, no choice nodes, and least number of unique combinations of nodes by degrees of magnitude. Within the nodes themselves, we have many relatively boring pure stat increases such as freezing winds, wintertide, lonely winter, etc.

Recommendation:

The tree really needs some creative juices put into it and almost a full rework. It has been receiving band-aid touch ups since the season 2 update in DF. The middle tier section needs much more widening and choice, and it would be great to have more inspired/creative talents that give us ways to specialize in ST/Cleave/AoE for a different raid fight, m+ dungeon, and more. Glacial Spike could use capstone talents since it’s been solidified as a core part of frost gameplay (looking at GS explosion tier set from S3/S4 DF).

Finally, frostbolt related talents are largely unwanted as gameplay loops around your filler spell are unsatisfying.

2. Mastery

Challenge:

Frost’s mastery has been through many changes over the last two expansions to make it both strong and feel intuitive to the style and gameplay of the spec. Prior to hero talents, this was largely successful simply adding in our core ST and AoE spells as beneficiaries to the stat line; however, the introduction of hero talents and many different spells that do not benefit from the stat (meteor, frostfire burst, excess fire and frost, etc) have significantly reduced the value of mastery.

Recommendation:

Shor term, being that hero talents are going to be evergreen going forward, we should simply add the new frostfire spells and procs to the list of spells that benefit from mastery.

Long term, frost’s mastery should be looked at in a way that allows for natural scalability and growth into future additions while feeling fun and interesting. At the present and in the short-term solution, mastery just becomes a differently worded Versatility stat. There are considerations to make here, but the old Frostburn mastery would largely fit well into frost’s kit both current state and all future states (may have to keep the lines of buffing our AoE spells to keep this relevant for those spells in this case).

3. Unintuitive Play

Challenge:

Since season 1 of dragonflight, frost has been somewhat plagued by odd and unintuitive playstyles emerging as a result of how fragile the spec’s design is around shatter. That season saw the emergence of frostbolt spam as the defacto way to do high end ST damage. And now in War Within with the introduction of the hero talents we saw a very unintuitive variant come out in S1 with spellslinger and weaving ice lances in between Winter’s Chill applications (needing WA support). With S2 seeing dramatic changes to excess fire and frost that have created more proc and buff tracking, not less. And leading to unintuitive situations where you may double cast flurry to avoid munching a proc/buff.

Recommendation:

This one is tougher and plays into the aforementioned problems with adding undesired playstyle support for frostbolt, and having talents that benefit it on the tree. I would suggest removing these from the tree, and the hero talents need more play testing and proactive feedback in PTR cycles before being deployed. The frostfire changes made in 11.1 either need to be rolled back or given another iteration.

4. Lack of Niche

Challenge:
One of the many aspects that make class and spec identity’s unique is having a niche in encounters. For example, destro warlocks have the niche of 2T damage across distances. Fire mages have spread cleave and execute while training one target, arcane has funnel and execute, others like Boomy and Spriest have amazing spread damage across multiple targets…etc.

Frost lacks this niche. It doesnt have execute like its sister specs, notable interactions like spread cleave or funnel…tt used to be 2T cleave, but other specs have power crept into this arena enough that it is no longer the frost specialty it used to be.

Recommendation:
Here I will lean on you guys the experts to think about this more. I would personally like to see frost re-establish its 2T cleave dominance, this could be done by making splitting ice 100% damage replication (so any shatters on main target get the effect on the other).

AoE burst has become sort of a halfway identity for frost with Coldest Snap, I think this could be leaned into more (probably just by adding meteor to mastery in Frostfire’s case). You could add an execute and make it a mage thing as a whole, or do the reverse of execute and add more damage when a boss is healthy.

Open to where this could go as like I said, frost doesnt and hasnt ever truly had a niche. This is a great opportunity to set a foundation for what that could be. It is worth noting that WoW has changed over time and there are certain arenas where it feels like a spec simply has to be good in that arena to be a competitive selection (ST damage namely, spread cleave is becoming this as well)

Conclusion

Frost is still benefiting from the great rework done in S2 of Dragonflight for its overall gameplay loop; however, the general design and talent tree have been left in the past. Additionally, the introduction of the hero talents have shown how fragile of a spec design frost is mostly tied to the mastery. Any interesting changes or shakeups create unintuitive gameplay loops. Finally, frost is lacking a dedicated niche where it can shine next to its sister specs.

14 Likes

If you wanna say with it:
Only push glacial gameplay…i must say: hard pass!

Im rly thirsty for a playstyle WITHOUT the boring glacial +rof. It feels clunky its meh.
Not only this: We must track now even some other stuff before firing off flurry?
Thats even more clunky and does not feel good @ gameplay wise.

Also i do NOT like the meh aoe-rota they brought later in DF. Where you have to go in melee range with COC e.g.

But i like some other points here.

I rly would love some NEW spells…a fresh playstyle for ST and AOE without glacial dominating everything since DF Season 2!

Also ROF is also very weak for AOE…maybe split it up.

Also i still like the +old+ DF 1 playstyle much more than glacial+other stuff.
Maybe we could also give us the old frozen winds back to support a more frostbolt-themed playstyles plus icelances and less boring standing still kind of play-style.

Just my hints.

And ofc:
Bring back the perma pet as a RLY new+fresh playstyle dear Dev’s <3

1 Like

I’ve really enjoyed frost mage since the the updates in DF but blizz bringing back frostbolting spamming for a damage increase just sucks. we’ve moved past this kind of gameplay because people largely disliked it. Wish they’d get rid of it again

1 Like

less button bloat plz

Following up on this regarding Ray of Frost, one of the effects that removing Freezing Winds had was making FoF a much more rare proc to get. The Ray of Frost notable, Cryopathy, requires 10 FoF’s to stack to its full effect.

Now that Freezing Winds is gone, it’s almost impossible to achieve even near full stacks of cryopathy without getting an Icy Veins proc from Temporal Anomaly.

Recommendation:

Short Term: Change cryopathy to stack to 5 instead of 10, with 10% per stack bonus instead of 5%

Long Term: Integrate Cryopathy into Ray of Frost baseline (with the short term change), and create new interesting notables around its effects, cd, damage, etc. Right now and for some time, Ray is simply not worth taking without cryopathy, nullifying the point of having two nodes for it.

7 Likes

They should just bring back old Freezing Winds.

Was also better for non-glacial build :confused: in terms of ST and AOE!

Hard agree with everything that Mr. Swltch said so far. Even at the risk of repeating a few things i also want to briefly go over my personal pain points of the current Frost iteration.

General
The talent tree.
Some talents are 100% locked in (like Glacial Spike); some talents remain completely unusable (like Splintering Ray); but most talents are currently just bland boring passive increases like the new and reworked talents Freezing Winds and Wintertide.

The latest changes also killed the Frostbolt oriented playstyles of last season, which currently leaves both Frostfire and Spellslinger with exactly one viable build for ST fights.

Spellslinger
Horrible tuning aside, Spellslinger continues to drift off into being a specc that only and solely cares about generating its Splinters. Ray is unusable, Comet Storm is just barely worth casting under certain conditions, and now Icicles also got even less relevant since not capping on Fingers of Frost appears to be more valuable than not overcapping on Icicles.

I sometimes joke that Spellslinger skills itself because you really and truly have zero choice in this herospecc on how to play your mage.

Frostfire
You, Mr. Blizzard, stated in one of your PTR notes that you wanted to reduce the incentive to track auras. This has failed spectacularly as we are tracking now every single buff that Frostfire has to offer. Besides the general cooldown management, the optimal gameplay now requires you to track Icicles, Winterschill, Fingers of Frost, Brain Freeze, Excess Fire, Excess Frost and Frostfire Empowerment.

Some of those buffs are also more valuable than others to play around - which leads to a gameplay that includes sending raw Flurries when a WeakAura tells you to, sometimes even in a row, while compeltely disregarding Frosts core mechanic around Winters Chill and Shatter. This playstyle does not spark joy and feels neither intuitive nor rewarding.

Conclusion
Frost is still somewhat functioning as a specc but is in dire need of some actual love and attention before the glaring flaws and neglect in design break it completely. Both Spellslinger and Frostfire are on a trend to disregard and abandon certain core mechanics that previously defined Frosts gameplay.

I fear this thread will not get the attention it deserves, since everyone is playing fire rn for obvious reasons anyway.

5 Likes

One of the benefits of frostburn’s mastery as well is it just naturally works with anything on shatter. And all these FF effects and splinters are on shatter, they just either didnt scale them stronger than vers or didnt add them to mastery at all, which feels quite bad.

I’d really like for our talents to get a pass from a design standpoint of how they want frost to play in the future. Imo we should embrace glacial spike and have talents empowering it - perhaps slightly change how it works so that it replaces frostbolt at 5 icicles instead of being a separate spell entirely.

5 Likes

Agree with basically everything here.

2 Likes

Also hate this on my mage alt.
I made a mage to get a break from being melee, but guess what still gotta do it to be optimal :weary:

1 Like

Not only would this free up design space around Glacial Spike to make interesting and versatile talents - it would also be a step forward in pruning the minigame/buff tracking bloat that is going on with Icicles, Winterschill and all the many other proccs we are currently managing.

On the same note: Make Comet Storm replace Frozen Orb if you are talented into it.
Spellslinger does not really want to cast Comet Storm anyway; and Frostfire does not get kneecapped by having less Fingers of Frost proccs because it absolutely swims in Flurry proccs and Winterschill uptime anyway. This would reduce button bloat, bring more identity to the herospeccs, and simplify the complicated (and for Frostfire now very unintuitive) combos around Cone of Cold with Coldest Snap.

1 Like

The more that other specs are updated the more obvious it is that Frost has been significantly left behind in the design space, particularly in AoE. It’s been frustrating to see nearly every other class get cast-on-target AoE spells and follow-target orbs, while Blizzard and Frozen Orb are left untouched. With increasing area-denial and so much required movement, my AoE experience has been frustrating this season.

Frost desperately needs a design pass, where the core aspects of the spec are retained but just function in better and healthier ways that make it less mechanically fragile. Make Frozen Orb follow targets, update Blizzard to work like Starfall, make Winter’s Chill a player buff, tweak Mastery to incentivise damage against Frozen targets, give a competitive non-Glacial Spike option, add some choice nodes and more talents for variety, and reduce the volume of buff tracking and button bloat.

So much feedback from players on how to improve Frost has been given countless times over the last couple of years so it’s hard to keep repeating ourselves every patch begging for scraps.

5 Likes

Can you explain what’s so not intuitive and complicated about CoC with Coldest Snap? It’s the same combo over and over again, the only factor is remaining CD on Orb and Comet Storm, and that can be a bit ignored.

I wish frost had either insane single target that works well in AOE still, or insane burst.
This very flat damage profile is dull and, a single death can have a larger impact, as there is no burst or prio target that can get you back in line, or provide value that can make up for a mistake like other class can.

I love the rotation, gs is fun (I do hate trying to get one off on a low health target, a talent to make gs instant cast if the target is below a health threshold would be awesome) come of cold sucks. The number of times it doesn’t hit three targets when it really should is so annoying and the melee part sucks

1 Like