State of Arcane Mage

The fire mage buffs were definitely needed but how is arcane still getting no love?

Not only is it one of the more underplayed specs in the game but it’s also performing very poorly in mythic raid. There is realistically one maybe two fights in the entire raid where arcane might have an edge over the other two specs but now with the fire buffs I question if arcane still has a place anymore.

The fire mage buffs indirectly hurt arcane mages. Anyone that felt like they had to play arcane for a certain fight will gladly swap back to fire with these buffs. If there is even the slightest reason to not play arcane players will simply choose the other two specs over arcane, it’s just the way its been and we saw this very clearly in SoD when SKB fire became a thing.

Arcane Mage Tier set…

2-Set: I’m not sure why 2-Set was nerfed to 10% when originally it was 18%. Given how much better other classes are performing at the moment this nerf seems very unnecessary. Frost mage remains on top and now with the fire buffs arcane has been left behind.

4-Set: At face value the 4 set seems to improve the quality of life for arcane and give a decent DPS boost. Our ToTM window is not an issue anymore and allows us to not be punished any longer by interruptions or movement during our burst but the acquisition of our 2nd legendary already helped with this. However, the 4-Set also comes with its downsides that are pretty significant and apparent to anyone that plays arcane. The extended time on our ToTM by 4 seconds becomes an issue if the targeted add dies quickly and it almost always does resulting in a loss of value. I’ve done 19 and 20 keys this season and more often than not the pack dies before my ToTM can land and I’d probably be better off not even using my 4 set. How is this a healthy tier set for arcane? Arcane already needs a bit of time to get the burn off and now with the extended ToTM there’s just always going to be value lost and it feels really bad to play. Any arcane player that only does keys around the 15 level will not have a good time compared to other classes and their tier sets. Why should players feel like they have to not use their tier set, swap specs, or do really high keys? And I haven’t even mentioned raid, good luck getting any significant value out of your 4 set if adds spawn. The 4-set needs a change.

Arcane is in a rough spot and the niches where arcane is good don’t compensate for the areas that it lacks, not even close.

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It seems like Blizzard is blatantly ignoring their own statistics, I’m sure they see Arcane underperforming compared to fire/frost and they simply don’t seem to care. Honestly Arcane should have got buffs, I really don’t know the reason why they choose to buff fire instead….but wha do i know? Blizz seems to make the most illogical moves.

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Cause arcane mages are pumping 100k dps aoe in a pack of 5 mobs.

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Tbf, if they’re looking at logs statistics then fire is at the bottom of them all while arcane is floating in the middle.

Blizzard is very bad at nerfing the outlier (Kyrian arcane) so that any other version of arcane in any other aspect of the game can be a bit better. But, since Kyrian arcane is broken in mythic + any buff would make it too powerful. Blizzard simply can’t comprehend how to fix this. Borrowed power is great though!

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I feel like fire’s buff officially makes arcane the worst mage spec in all content of WoW. I can really only speak for PVP, but our worldwide representation in arena is below 3 tank specs. Starting to think that blizzard is just unhappy with arcane and doesnt want to address it at all until next expansion.

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If that’s the case then I guess we should be looking forward to some big changes.

sniffs copium

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Excuse me? What are you guys on because Arcane mage is absolutely NOT doing 100k dps in m+ and it is NOT broken in m+. As someone who was Arcane main 9.1 and pushed into 23’s. And currently Arcane still with 4 set bonus and pushing 20-22 keys at the moment, we are NOT doing that great compared to other aoe unga bunga specs. I.E. Locks, WW monks, Rogues, Hunters. It feels BAD. The 4 set bonus is great… if mobs stay alive to get touch off. Otherwise it’s as OP said and mobs die so fast (Tyran and low Fort) that touch doesn’t get it’s full value. Even on fort, if the target I picked doesn’t have like 400k more health than the rest of mobs (looking at you Mists) then touch wont get it’s full value :frowning:

There are maybe some pulls where I can rail off like a 50k-80k dps burst with some juicy crits and perfect ramp timing with mobs grouped, but aside from that I’m still only doing like 11-12k overall while other specs are hitting 15k and exceptional meta class doing 18-20k overall. It’s stupid unfair that Blizz nerfed our 2 set for no discernable reason. God forbid the most underplayed mage class gets to have any fun. I guess this is what it feels like to be a Feral druid.

I don’t mind the extension of TOTM duration, but maybe have it tweaked to like 2 seconds and add in a dmg buff to additional cleave. I just wish the spec performed better because despite optimal play, it’s looking like a frost mage world if I have any hope of pushing into +23’s and beyond. If anyone here mains Arcane and pushes anything beyond 14kdps overall in m+ high keys, please let me know some tips because I’m struggling over here.

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You do have a point here. In mythic+ it certainly is up to group composition that will dictate how arcane performs and the complete 4pc tier set could turn into a dps loss in most cases. I had the pleasure of being in a group with a demonology warlock and a marksman hunter this week. It’s not a super high key, by any instance, but I think a lot of people can picture how that went with those two having 4pc tier in the same group. Arcane can shine pretty well and it’s not horrifically bad, by any means outside of pvp, but for it to shine you kind of have to build your group around specific classes to see it do well :sweat_smile:

Also, I would never compare arcane to feral, because arcane can carry itself very well in the mythic+ environment more than feral can. As for frost, no one can (or should) argue how consistent damage from frost would be way more valuable than the short burst and nothing for a while that arcane has, tbf, but it’s far from bad.

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I hover around the 15-17 key range. I don’t have my 4 set yet but now I am not excited at all after learning this.

I already struggle to get Arcane barrage and ToTM value on Tyran weeks. This feels bad.

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And here is where you kyrian arcane begin to struggle. I’m a night fae arcane with only a two piece and I’m averaging 11 to 13k myself. Granted I burned myself out pushing 23s last tier as well, so I’m starting this tier slow in the 17 range atm. In general, however, I’ve been saying this about kyrian arcane since its inception. It sims very high, but theoretical output is meaningless if it’s practicallity is limited. Kyrian has always required a perfect rotation under ideal circumstances to pump, and god help you if your target dies before that barrage goes off, you fail to crit, or you get hit by a mechanic. That’s why there are well under a 1000 arcane mages left. Most realized this a long time ago and jumped ship. This is why the spec was headed to disaster the moment blizzard decided to go all in on balancing the spec around Kyrian because the streamers declared it meta.

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No?

The problem for arcane and why people move away from it goes beyond just covenants. Legendaries and the overall playstyle thats more limiting than fire and frost is what turns people off. I also doubt that most use kyrian arcane because some streamer as you say, says it’s the meta. Your reasoning for kyrian having those flaws is very well known, but even then it still is above the rest and at its best, the rest just can’t compete, but at its worse (no crits in the burst rotation in ToTM) that really doesn’t speak very well for the rest especially for night fae if their best is comparable to kyrians worse performance.

Even I’m starting to really feel what other feel about arcane in general. Frost and fire just feels better and more satisfying to play. I’ll still play arcane, but overtime I just might even decide to main fire and frost.

The kyrian playstyle does get really frustrating and leaves a bitter taste in your mouth when even in a raid environment you can do everything perfectly, but still end up doing very awful if crit decides not to even work in your favor at all, and I’ve gone through my fare share of encounters where I’d rarely see barrage or blast crit during my cds. That seriously messes with a persons confidence :sweat:.

But, despite all of that, kyrian isn’t the primary issue. If people go to kyrian and even then decide to jump ship from the entire spec with full knowledge of what the other covenants offer AND lack, then that really isn’t a good way to prop up the others.

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See that’s where your wrong Arkinov. Arcane isnt unfun to play unless your chasing the meta build that your quote un quote supposed to follow. That’s especially true, but not limited to, this expansion with covenants. The frustrating and unrewarding feeling of arcane almost always comes from said meta build, which usually involves some jank and convoluted rotation that requires the stars to align to do a ridiculous burst of damage.

To that end, and contrary to your assertions, it’s the streamers, council elite, and forum writers that enshrine this build that screws over the rest of us. Porom, the practical inventor of kyrian arcane, is the wowhead mage writer and discord admin for the spec. Before his discovery of kyrian arcanes potential, most mages were either night fae or venythr, and loved their rotarians. Due to the way kyrian interacts with the various borrowed powers and systems, however, the rest of the builds were dumpstered so that blizzard could work on kyrian to be “viable”.

That’s also why we cant get buffs. Because even small buffs that would make sense for fae, venthyr, and necro cant be implemented because they have the potential to make kyrian broken on sims. The fact that the vast majority of players will never realize those sims due to the very precise circumstances they require to pull off is treated as irrelevant as long as someone like synbyn comes along, does a buttload of damage, and makes the other streamers cry foul. Do you really think it’s a coincidence that the tier nerfs and leggo balance for arcane going into 9.2 only dealt with things relevant to kyrian? Come on man.

The fact that im doing comparable damage to you without 4 piece and a crap leggo isnt something I’d use to defend your position, especially if I begin to outperform you when gear discrepancies calm down in a few months. Kyrian at it’s best does outshine the other covenants, but if you can only do your best 4 out of every 10 runs that’s an issue. Theoretical numbers in that regard are meaningless and are also holding us back by preventing meaningful balance for the other builds. And its precisely that lack of balance that have people fleeing the spec. No spec or class should be balance around only what a few hundred people can do in optimal conditions.

Frost is so average though, I think most people went Frost only because Fire was so weak, not because Frost was/is strong, tbh.

Frost’s tier set is very middle of the road. Sims never factor in it whiffing, which it does when stuff moves around. Sims also assume Frost gets to heavily turret, which doesn’t always happen.

Honestly overall mages as a class are in quite a mediocre situation raid-wise for a pure DPS spec. I always feel like the true merit of a DPS is adding enough value to warrant stacking more than one in a group. If you look at the CE race, only 1 mage was brought in per fight, and for Lords of Dread they didn’t even bother with a mage. The people who played these mages are highly skilled and were well geared (4 piece, etc.) and still finished at near the bottom if not the bottom on almost every single boss even though their rotation was near perfect if not absolutely perfect.

Mages remain popular in M+ because they offer good role compression alongside a survival toolkit that often allows healers to expend very few/no GCDs on them and focus more on DPS checks, but in raids they’ve been very lackluster throughout almost all of Shadowlands.

Right now, anyone looking to play caster DPS and offer best DPS for their spot in a raid wouldn’t even think twice about mage vs warlock, it’s not even remotely close. Not only do warlocks have better raid utility via lock rocks and gates they just flat out do way better damage as well. You’d stack 2 or more of those in any serious group before you’d even consider stacking 2+ mages.

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I’ve never really put myself on a pedestal higher than what I believe I could potentially do. And I’ve never said it was unfun, but only that people just don’t like the playstyle in general. And no, people don’t look at Syn and just say, well, Kyrian it is. It’s just a simple fact there when in practice kyrian is the best with venthyr being the only one able to at least keep up with kyrian. I also did say how it’s frustrating to, in the situations where I can do the rotations perfectly, I’d still come up very short and awful because, no crit. Also, if this is you trying to imply that my performance is because of me chasing the meta, you couldn’t be far from the truth, especially when I made an entire forum post explaining my switch from venhyr in 9.0 to kyrian due to playstyle. Heck, at the time the only known arcane main mage that I was aware of that was playing was ampbilion and seeing him run Castle Nathria on Sludgefist as necrolord could have swayed my decision to go to that. I wasn’t even aware of who Syn was up until just a few months ago, but even then, in 9.0 my decision was completely independent of any guides or streamer opinions. And my decision to stick to kyrian as arcane is still independent of streamer opinions.

As for the way Blizzard tends to take a sledgehammer to balance because of the covenants that certain people use. I even made a reply in gd section under someone’s thread about how Blizzard balance things in a way that unjustly punishes others for the thing that a few use instead of adjusting or nerfing the offender or just adjusting or buffing the underperformed.

Alot of the other things that you say I don’t disagree with. A lot of the covenant abilities for a lot of classes were just slapped onto all classes without an ounce of consideration for how they’d interact (both weak and powerful) with the specs of these classes. Just here in the mage section we have a frost mage amping up his feedback for kyrian frost, but with nothing and not much of anyone really back him up aside from the “lolmemebuild”. The other abilities for arcane are the way that they are, and even to an extent for fire and frost, because no one bothered to push for changes. The dk community went out of their way to push the devs hard to make changes for their covenant abilities to the point where necrolord was able to come out on top because of the changes made in response which made almost everyone somewhat fine with it.

Can’t really say the same about the mage community. This expansion there has been some people here and there asking for changes for every ptr build made live, but with nothing aside from some small tweaks for venthyr and kyrian for arcane, but that’s it.

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Apologies in advance for rambling. Tl;dr I enjoy the Kyrian playstyle, even if you can prove to me that the damage it does is worse than all the other options.

I’ve been a Kyrian arcane mage since the beginning. Before it was meta. Before any streamers or “gaming elites” decided it was the way to go. I liked the allure of a 30 second cooldown and I honestly liked the Bastion transmogs the most. I spent one day as Venthyr and that was this patch (because those treasure chests in ZM that were 2 feet above my head but unreachable were agitating me). I can’t speak for how other covenants / specs will play, but maybe I can give some insight into why I legitimately enjoy the playstyle, and why it’s not for everyone. I do more raiding (currently progressing heroic) than I do M+ (I have done +15s on everything I think and my group will probably look to start pushing soon), so consider my opinions compared to my current content.

Arcane has suffered from a major problem for a very long time. It’s a high risk playstyle that doesn’t often retain the high reward expected from from taking risks. In BfA, if I executed everything absolutely perfectly on a fight, I was still going to do less damage than I would if I was playing frost unoptimized and just messing around. In Shadowlands, it feels a bit more competitive to play arcane, however as mentioned above, there’s still a lot of risk involved.

The playstyle for arcane, Kyrian or not, involves a fairly heavy amount of management. It’s not quite as simple as “click the button that glows” because you need to keep track of mana, charges, cooldowns, and movement (I know arcane is not unique in this concept). At the end of the day, it’s a style where you actually have a lot of control over what happens and when, if you can focus enough to manage them all. That’s why I like the playstyle - I’m a control freak, and I like being able to decide when my damage happens vs. getting a proc vs. just casting the same rotation over and over on every fight. The only things I don’t have control over in the way that I play (which is likely sub-optimal) are 1) if arcane barrage crits and 2) if the mobs were close enough for barrage to hit all of them.

Kyrian adds another layer to that level of management (I’m assuming you pick the Harmony legendary to go with it). Most people don’t want more things to manage in a fight, and I’ll be honest, it often overwhelms me despite having played mage for 15 years and arcane for probably 10 of those years. However, this playstyle has addressed 2 issues that I’ve had with arcane - one longstanding, and one new.

The longstanding issue is that I’ve never liked arcane barrage. It typically signals the end of our burst phase but usually doesn’t hit nearly as hard as a “combo-spender” should hit. The Kyrian-Harmony build changes that, especially now with the unity legendary. Arcane barrage hits like a truck that’s being hit by several other trucks now. Maybe I’m a bit simple-minded about it, but being able to crit something for ~200k and have your group say “where’d that mob go?” is really satisfying.

The second issue is that I really don’t like Touch of the Magi and I’m tired of blizzard trying to make it a thing. I much preferred Charged Up over this. I know it deals a ton of damage and adds more things that I can control, but I feel like it has inadvertently created a detriment to the spec as a whole. I chose to go with radiant spark because I felt it would lessen my reliance on Touch as a mini-burst (which it has).

I haven’t seen it for a while, but for a good chunk of this expansion, arcane mages were complaining that we weren’t getting enough procs of Clearcasting to store and use during Touch to optimize damage. It’s a flaw in the rotation that I don’t need to care as much about with Kyrian. As Kyrian, even with the 2-set, I don’t enjoy casting Touch. It’s just another extra buff with another extra cast that’s getting in the way of damage. Am I missing some damage from not optimizing this spell? Yes. Do I still enjoy the style? Absolutely. If I was offered a talent that would change Touch to something else, I would take that talent. I almost don’t even care what it is, I just dislike the spell.

When it comes to M+ specifically, I had resigned myself early on to the idea that I’m not going to be the most useful member of our runs since I’m mostly single target. With the inclusion of Unity, the game has completely changed. I may not be able to beat others in large pulls, but the damage increase is noticeable. It creates a very… strange… aoe rotation, but it feels so much better than it did to me. I’m not capable of putting out the same amount of damage as our MM Hunter with his Wild Spirits, but being able to focus down the priority add while also now cleaving feels really good.

At the end of the day, the arcane spec as a whole is suffering the way that lots of other classes are. The specs and playstyles are half-baked, and it’s only the current iteration of borrowed power that makes them work. For me, Kyrian is what makes the playstyle something I enjoy playing, even if the numbers aren’t always up-to-snuff. Others don’t enjoy the playstyle for Kyrian and, even though I think it’s super fun, I totally understand people’s disdain for its style.

In BfA, arcane felt like it was in the middle of being reworked and the team just stopped. The spec felt incomplete and like something was missing. Shadowlands feels like an attempt to throw some random ideas at it to see what sticks and what can complete the build for a more permanent solution. The problem that it created is that within the arcane community, which is remarkably small, we now have 2 factions: Those who like the Kyrian style and those who don’t (regardless of which does more damage). Numbers can be tweaked. Spells can be balanced. But playstyles and rotations require a lot more work to nail down and my only real hope is that we don’t go back to being as useless as we were in BfA when the next expansion hits.

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Well you got that right. If Kyrian Arcane style were a person I’d punch it in the face.

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That’s exactly how I feel about fire. I just straight up don’t enjoy it and find it to be incredibly degenerate, but I understand that there are those that enjoy it wholeheartedly and I wouldn’t want to see it changed just because the grumpy arcane mage doesn’t like it.

One way to try to resolve this problem with the Kyrian style, in my opinion, is to reduce the number of cooldowns / self buffs we use in our rotations. On a normal pull where I can stand still and don’t need to use defensives, I think I’ll cast between 7-9 different spells (depending on the number of targets). Of those 9 spells, only ~4 directly deal damage in an impactful way (Arcane Orb deals damage, but its utility in single target outweighs its damage). The rest are either buffing us or dealing indirect damage that to me isn’t as exciting.

I do honestly think that the Kyrian playstyle would be more enjoyable for everyone if Touch of the Magi were to be reverted back to Charged Up (and obviously if numbers were adjusted to fix the loss of damage). It’s still a bit odd, but I’d find it an overall improvement.

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Hello,

I agree with your feedback, I am pretty dedicated to arcane, but often switch to Frost or fire for raid, just because I don’t want the hassle ( on some fights). Even when the tier sets are gone, I feel some of those root problems will be around.

Number tuning aside and i know these items have been brought up before.

  • I would love to see the CD reduced on TOTM if the full duration is not applied.
  • I would love to see an option to keep CC when using AE like you can in PVP. ( as AE can be a main charge generator)
  • I would love to hold CC charges for a longer duration, (atleast 20s?)
  • I would love to see Arcane orb baseline.
  • I would like Evocation to apply to group members.

I think going forward the biggest issue Arcane will always face is if it’s even worth picking over Fire. The two specs functionally offer the same thing: burst followed by downtime. Fire has for a very long time been able to do this more safely. In most cases, the risk : reward ratio for Arcane’s burst often doesn’t make it appealing. And then it gets more off-putting due to the fact that you manage more resources as Arcane.

Fire is basically always guaranteed to get its burst off. It’s a huge edge it has over Arcane. Going forward, besides a number tweak Arcane needs to differentiate itself enough from Fire in terms of a functional use to warrant being picked more.

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