Spriest: Not to beat a dead horse, but some additional thoughts

Many good points have already been made in previous posts as to the current weaknesses of Shadow in most scenarios, and ideas on how to improve them, so I will not rehash that here. However, a point that I think we may be missing is the concept of risk / reward, and mastery of one’s class being directly represented by their output, i.e. the design philosophies that Blizzard has so often described as fundamental to their process. It is a somewhat long post, but hopefully useful.

Shadow priest, relative to almost all other dps classes, is a difficult class to play. It has a complex rotation, significant ramp time, low survivability, and mediocre mobility. Not to mention its damage dependence on chain pulling in M+, or on target availability and uptime in raid. By playing a shadow priest, particularly if you main one, you will likely find that playing almost any other class is simple and straightforward. This, of course, serves to underline the frustration of the situation.

Given the complexities of rotation and playstyle, and the significant damage loss that results from even only minor mistakes, it would be logical to conclude that shadow priests would have strong output if played well, and exceptional output if one were to master that class. Not only is this not the case, I would argue that nearly the opposite state exists. Shadow priests must play very well to be even close to most other damage dealers, and in mastery of the class, they may still not hope to be the top of the meter in almost any scenario (given players of near equal ilvl on other classes).

What’s more, shadow priest output is -heavily- dependent on having the right azerite traits and corruption. A lot of classes are at the moment, e.g. all tanks on twilight dev, but there is a big difference between the relationship that shadow priest has with azerite and corruption, and that of other classes:

Shadow priests are only made viable by the right traits / corruption, other classes are enhanced by it.

If you were to attempt to play shadow priest without Chorus of Insanity, for example, you would be bottom of the dps pile in every scenario, even if you played the class perfectly. With Chorus of Insanity, we only open the door to being viable. Ultimately our output with CoI is still dependent on our individual performance, i.e. how long we are able to remain in voidform, as well as on factors that are often beyond our control, e.g. if chain pulls happen. Without CoI, our damage will be poor regardless of how well we play the class.

That our damage is so disconnected from skill and class mastery, without the requisite (and randomly obtained) azerite and corruption, seems to me an enormous problem. What’s more, it is immensely frustrating to see other classes (read almost all other classes) pulling more damage with a significantly simpler rotation / playstyle (e.g. dh, bm hunter, rogue, ele sham, etc.), as well as moving faster, and having access to cooldowns, defensives, utility, and CC that just don’t exist in the shadow priest toolkit.

Every expansion, and often between patches within an expansion, Blizzard cites new reasons for nerfing, and / or not fixing the many problems with shadow priests.

At first, they were a utility class, so naturally their damage would not be as high as pure damage classes. But currently, we do not have much utility (aside from MD, which is rarely useful, and VE…which is an extremely lack-luster ability, and one that I would happily see go away if it is the justification for our overall low output). No one brings a shadow priest to a group because they have MD or VE, so what’s the point of modifying our damage around them?

Then shadow priests were a niche class, able to excel at certain types of fights, such as spread cleave, but were less effective in others, such as pure single target. However, due to recent nerfs, we are poor at single target (without significant ramp, and time spent in execute range), poor at AOE (unless, again, the fight lasts for a long time), and only decent at spread cleave. Shadow priests have effectively gone from being very strong at one or two things and mediocre at the others, to being mediocre at one or two things, and notably weak at all others.

There is, also, no end in sight. Shadowlands appears to offer the same issues as we’ve encountered in BfA, but without the azerite and corruption lifejacket. Without major changes, which I have no confidence that Blizzard intends to make, Shadow priest looks to be entirely unplayable, both from an output sense and a ‘fun to play’ sense.

If the class is to remain as complex as it is, which I think is what drew most of us to it in the first place, the output should directly reflect the mastery of it. A skilled shadow priest should be doing at least as much, if not significantly more damage than a simple class. There is no reward for playing a complex class if it is otherwise.

What’s more, when a complex class has less utility, cc, survivability, mobility, and damage options than that of simpler classes, there is literally no reason to play it at all. Other than, of course, for love of the class. That love is, however, not enough to justify playing something that is unviable.

None of this should come as a surprise, just look at the splits of classes most represented in M+. Or listen to feedback from the alpha test (spriest performance without azerite and corruption). Or listen to feedback from the race for world first. Or most of the feedback in the forums. Shadow priests are pretty unanimously bottom tier.

If you want to see this perception in action, just try queuing for M+. You’re likely to be trying for a long time, which of course is due to community perception of spriest. While that is often unduly unfair, it is not, however, generated in a vacuum.

3 Likes

It really, really doesn’t. It has a punishing, but also incredibly simple rotation with little to no variance, you press the same 3 buttons in the same priority / order the entire time. I’d also say “At least 1/3 of your time you can move with little to no penalty” isn’t medium mobility.

While I agree shadow has only succeeded in spite of voidform, and not because of it, I cannot agree shadows current design is difficult to play or warrants being inherently better at overall DPS than any other spec. That’s just not how the game works,

9 Likes

or warrants being inherently better at overall DPS than any other spec. That’s just not how the game works,

This is something it seems the devs don’t understand themselves.

If the trade-off for long ramping damage is that we do less damage than burst classes on 95% of content, then the pay-off must be that we are inherently better at overall DPS than any other spec for the 5% of encounters that go longer than 3 minutes.

So in the current design, Shadow should always be the best DPS for all raid bosses.

Or, long ramps must be removed.

Either one really :slight_smile:

10 Likes

that please…actually all ramp up needs to go in its entirety.

4 Likes

Ramp up is basically why ranged classes are shunned from m+.

1 Like

You hit the nail on the head, there is no better way to describe this.

If your class is bad at one thing, then there should be something else it excels at. Shadow doesn’t have this, it’s worse at almost everything than any other spec. Interrupts are the perfect example of this.

We can waste a talent point to make Silence, the current worst interrupt in the game, into a slightly less bad worst interrupt in the game. 45 seconds (talented) CD is worse than every other base interrupt besides Boomkin, which is an AOE Interrupt (<–Example of a well designed niche). The only benefit it has is that is can be used when a mob isn’t casting, which isn’t useful outside of PvP. There is no tradeoff, it’s just plain worse in every respect, that’s not good design, that ignorance.

4 Likes

People are often talking about two different things when they say mobility. One is the ability to move long distances quickly and one is the ability to move while dpsing.

In the context of a raid fight a lot of classes can spend a gcd to teleport/jump/roll/blink or activate a long, high speed boost to avoid a mechanic. Shadow, via a talent point, has a very short speed boost.

Being able to mostly sustain our rotation while moving is a definite advantage, but it isn’t even enough to make us GOOD in high movement fights.

I believe he’s talking about the first one, because that kind of mobility is a large QoL benefit in the rest of the game.

1 Like

That may be the case here, but it’s also something shadow has just never had access to.

Also worth noting so many people talk about “Make voidform cast while moving to improve mobility” and might feel their opinion justified by this post.

Also aside from BM hunter, which has up until BFA suffered a damage penalty for its relative freedom, no ranged spec is good at both of these things by design, you’re either good at travelling long distances quickly, or you’re good at efficiently moving within your rotation.

Specs being so cd reliant that moving outside of them, no matter how many casts you miss, is basically irrelevant, has significantly muddied that, but fixing cd reliance for those specs would change it back. With shadows historic lack of reliance on CDs and focus on overall sustained damage, I’d rather be able to move consistently and without penalty than long distances quickly if I have to choose.

Shadow in SL though, because of void bolt rank 2, has neither consistent movement, nor the ability to travel long distances quickly. That’s a huge problem.

2 Likes

Silence isn’t an interrupt. It was actually changed a few expansions back to interrupt bosses, which was a welcome change. It can really only be compared to other silences, which are rare. The druid one, for instance, doesn’t work on bosses.

As much as I’d like a ranged interrupt, a blanket silence is too powerful to have a short CD.

Which was acceptable when we has such high survivability and self healing that waddling around wasn’t so much of an issue. We’ve lost that tankiness in both pve and pvp, and received nothing in return.

It’s one of the most frustrating things about the current design. Shadow seems to be heavy on weaknesses and short on strengths. Like movement fights, we aren’t killing it there even though our dps suffers less than most while moving.

1 Like

Then I’d rather get that tankiness back then. The point I was making is, looking at all the other casters. You don’t get to be both consistently mobile, and good at travelling long distances.

If I had to pick one, given how shadow has always worked and continued to throughout legion and BFA, I’d pick the former, which is what we have.

Agreed

Except when you do. BM is the most egregious example, but off the top of my head fire mage and elemental have enough instants to be consistently mobile too.

While I am fine with the strength / weakness model I am sick of the arbitrary application to classes. I’m also tired of having weaknesses that make Shadow sub-optimal in 90% of the game while having “strengths” that make us average in the other 10.

2 Likes

BM is the only example and in legion it paid for it with overall damage (BM is universally good now so people don’t feel forced into mm when it doesn’t really work), fire is mostly due to its over reliance on cd windows making the rest of the rotation basically pointless. If fireball actually mattered to fire, it’d be a lot worse at mobile damage than it is.

Ele is in the same boat as us for the most part in raids, their reliance on filler damage when not running storm ele is really high. And ghost wolf isn’t that fast either. When they had gust in legion maybe.