The point is the Jailer didn’t have to influence those things directly. They were all the product of simply allowing the Dreadlords to operate in the first place.
It doesn’t matter if the Jailer had a hand in influencing what Thrall ate for breakfast before marrying Aggra; that’s inconsequential.
The problem is that by inculcating the Dreadlords with Zovaal implicates that everything that’s happened in World of Warcraft’s history has been a net benefit for Zovaal to make the claim.
Zovaal knows their programming, he knows how they’ll react, he also knows them individually cause the Dreadlords are really good at surveillance and espionage.
There are a few hiccups sure: Arthas and Sargeras maybe not killing Azeroth but it STILL does not change the fact that Zovaal knew how everyone would react with exception of Arthas.
Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch his mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
His kind transcends your very understanding. They are each a nation. Independent, free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of their existence.
^
This is the type of logic that is written by those who want a character to sound clever but aren’t that clever themselves. Sherlock Holmes “detective logic” making impossible leaps to seem 10K IQ. The Jailer’s plan is incomprehensible, but he keeps claiming it was all his masterstroke because he’s just that smart he can predict the outcome of even pure chaos.
This whole situation could have been avoided by one simple addition to the lore - if Danuser hadn’t abandoned the plot line about the Loom of Fate in favor of wasting time with Sylvanas, and we had learned that Zovaal’s true power was that he was able to read the threads of destiny and know what was going to happen next. If they wanted him to be a 5D mega-brain, the only way that would work is if he could see the future.
Destiny was very, very clearly intended to be a major plot point in Shadowlands as it was initially laid out by Afrasabi, before Danuser took over and hijacked the narrative to focus on Sylvanas. The themes of Destiny, Fate, the Destined Maw Walker, Free Will, etc were all building to the revelation that free will didn’t really exist in World of Warcraft. This is why Sylvanas spoke of being prisoners to their fate, this world is a prison, etc.
Why does Danuser think the Fatescribe even exists? The whole point was that should have been a big plot reveal.
I’m pointing out a clear fact, that there is no way that the Jailer, or the Dreadlords, could have planned out Argus’s death as it happened. If it were a simple plan of ‘get the Draenei to build the Vindicaar and have them fly it to Argus to smite Argus’ then absolutely, they could have influenced that.
But all the steps needed for that event to play out as it did makes the idea that it was planned absolutely stupid.
Don’t get me wrong, the Dreadlords were absolutely planning other events. For example, one of their initial plans was to have the 4th war started by Anduin. Detheroc was supposed to pose as Matthias Shaw and influence Anduin, convincing him to strike first against the Horde. Only that plan failed because the Uncrowned discovered the plan, freed Matthias and defeated Detheroc before he could finish up.
But Zovaal is not onmiscient. He is not some 7D chess master, and neither is Denathrius or the Dreadlords. They took advantage of the opportunities that were presented to them. That’s it.
They could sense darkness in someone and manipulate it. They might have thought they could twist Sargeras to there side, but he just went in to a rage and killed them.
Mal’Ganis was chosen to head up the plot to turn Arthas Menethil to darkness, and make him the Lich King’s greatest champion, but he pushed too many button and got killed.
They didn’t have to literally plan it out in painstaking detail. Argus would’ve either died from being a spawning battery for the Legion or by something else. All the Dreadlords had to do was point Sargeras in the direction.
Time is inconsequential in the Shadowlands. It didn’t matter when Argus perished, only that would happen. The Dreadlords, who’ve been connected to Zovaal, orchestrated that event.
You seem weirdly fixated that the Dreadlords would’ve micromanaged everything in order for an inevitability, which conflicts with how the Dreadlords enact their espionage.
Even if Lothraxion was part of the master strategy concerning Argus (doubtful), his influence could only do so much, again, far too many events were outside of their influence or ability to control.
You’re trying to paint a 7D chess master narrative when it doesn’t exist.
But that’s literally what people here are arguing, that Zovaal and the Dreadlords planned it all out, that they’re responsible for ALL of it.
They’re not, they never have been.
They weren’t responsible for the corruption of Sargeras.
They weren’t responsible for the creation of the Burning Legion.
They weren’t responsible for the War of the Ancients.
They weren’t responsible for the 1st and the 2nd War.
They weren’t responsible for the creation of the Lich King.
The Dreadlords have had plans that they’ve tried to enact, but most of them have failed or only occurred because of blind luck and opportunities seized thanks to someone else doing the work for them.
It’s not about right or wrong. It’s a bunch of players having a laugh saying that something as silly as “It was all a dream” would be a better outcome than continuing the current storyline. We know it won’t happen. It’s a joke that others take way too seriously. No one is picket-lined outside Blizzard HQ demanding a total rewrite of the passed two years.
It does exist, and that’s the narrative they went with. Why are you ignoring obvious evidence to the contrary? It’s ALL relevant, they manipulated things behind the scenes, the whole point of Zovaal’s narrative is “tell don’t show”.
The obvious problem with this is Zovaal is not written like a James Bond villain or for a more close to home example: Denathrius himself. He isn’t written to be clever, manipualtive, or conniving… they went with the classic WoW approach of: “Big scary god with an apocalyptic army”. Which doesn’t work, it clashes with the idea that Zovaal is SUPPOSED to be a megamind.
Because the actual evidence points to the exact opposite.
It doesn’t take a degree in quantum mechanics to read the lore and understand the reality of the situation. Sadly a lot of folks have gotten twisted up on this stupid 7D chessmaster narrative because they can’t be bothered to properly analyze what we’ve been given.
Either way I’m stepping out. I’m tired of trying to explain this to people who have no interest in trying to understand any viewpoint other than their own.
They contributed to Sargeras’ decent into madness, so yea.
All of these were results of turning Sargeras, which the Dreadlords did have a hand in. It’s simply cause and effect. Sargeras acted on all of those events, but as a result of being turned in the first place.
The story literally points out that the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne were produced from the Maw, so you’re completely wrong on that statement.
