Spell Batching Vs Seal of Command - Bugged Interaction

will reply later I need to go now, however out of interest what is your actual argument? that seal twisting a video recorded, documented and known technique in tbc didnt exist? that the technique didnt function the way it worked in spite of the fact we know exactly how it functioned? that seal of command ppm resolution shouldnt happen at the instance of the white swing when videos prove that it did, through demonstrating changing seals before the proc happened? or that seal of command is currently functioning correctly in classic, when it very clearly and obviously isnt when you do side by side comparisons of actual footage of the original game?

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Every single time I use TBC as evidence that something worked the way it did, I’m told to find Vanilla evidence, like this:

There is an obvious attempt by many Paladins to search with bias for anything they can use in an attempt to persuade Blizzard to buff them. The double standard here is real.

What is my argument? My argument is that spell batching is working in an authentic manner. My goal is to get spell batching removed/changed to the Modern system. I don’t want it “fixed” or tuned, I want this archaic, awful system removed.

Blizzard obviously believes it’s working properly, even if by some small chance it isn’t. None of these “No-changers” want to admit they were wrong in ever asking for it, so they blame Blizzard for getting it wrong. That’s not ever going to get Blizzard to change it, admitting the community was wrong and asking nicely for it to change might.

This doesn’t help, not one bit.

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please do not compare me to Archeon - thank you

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hmm based on this assertion that it is not bugged, then could you please explain using the current system why seal twisting does not work; and how if the current system is working correctly, Seal Twisting will all of a sudden start working in the future, when you cant twist before the batch and get a seal to affect the white and yellow hit? I would actually like to understand your thought process rather then blanket statements, think about the mechanics yourself…

I have broken down for you in a “play-by-play” run through; exactly how seal twisting worked in the original game, as well as explained why seal of command does not function the same way in a method which has been backed up be multiple sources.

Instead of just saying you believe its not bugged rationally think through the interactions yourself and explain, your thought process and rationality behind your assertion… e.g how you think given the current series of interactions of the spells they will produce the same results as the original game.

I think you will quickly come to the conclusion yourself once you do this that; given we know that Seal of Command is not calculating ppm till after the parse; which videos show it should not do, that it is impossible that:
A) the spell is functioning correctly and…
B) the spell will be able to facilitate seal twisting; a known and undeniable mechanic… since you cant swap seals before the parse.

Im honestly not trying to call you out but just think through the interactions yourself, theres a disconnect…

EDIT:
Also while i think that would be interesting removing batching entiely that is an entirely different pursuit, argument, and ambition… All I am trying to do here is recreate the actual original game as accurately as possible, that that begins with pointing out interactions which dont seem to line up with documented recordings of original gameplay mechanics

it finally reached 60… tagged and reported as trolling.

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Are you certain that seal twisting worked in Vanilla, if you are, are you also certain that the current implementation of spell batching is the reason it isn’t working?

Think about it this way. How much did Blizzard get right with Classic? Think about it objectively; 99.9% of the game is functioning authentically to Vanilla. There were bugs, yes, but there’s also that huge “not a bug” thread. There’s tons of things people thought had to do with spell batching that turned out it was something else entirely or was just spell batching doing exactly what it did in Vanilla.

It seems the “issues” with spell batching are ever receding as more and more evidence that it’s working correctly is shown.

At first it was “everything is being batched, vendors shouldn’t have artificial lag!” I then showed videos of the exact same lag in Vanilla.

Then it was “enemies shouldn’t be able to run through improved Blizzard, this isn’t Vanilla like!” I then showed multiple videos of enemies running through Improved Blizzard.

As well as numerous other claims that I’ve proven to be false.

It’s just a constant game of people moving the goalposts, we’re now onto seal twisting.

EDIT: Sorry about the wall of text mate haha, hopefully it isnt too annoying to read :sweat_smile:

Mmm I definitely appreciate that there have been countless mis-cited bugs, and inaccurate reports, you are undeniably right about that. But that seems to be an inevitability when it comes to any process similar to this e.g the reproduction of a game, and as a result it definitely falls on the bug ticket issuers as a responsibility to explain their reports as thoroughly as possible and with as much credible supporting information as possible.

To that end I have tried to, provide as much information as possible surrounding these ideas, so this definitely isnt just a random “This is bugged fix it!!11” post haha.

That being said I think moving goal posts is actually an awesome thing rather then a bad thing haha, I mean think about it, what that actually implies is that we have for the most part confirmed undeniably that a large part if not the majority of the game is as close to the original as possible, the more the goal posts move, the better it actually is, until they hit the finish line and we can finally say, this is undeniably and indisputably as close to vanilla as it could be… So lets keep those goal posts moving!

Finally the question of am I certain, lets look at what is certain, Seal Twisting was established and discovered in The Burning Crusade for the most part, that is why the majority of evidence surrounding it is TBC era, so that is the reason for TBC evidence provision, we know Seal of Command is not functioning the same way in Classic as it did in Vanilla, you could cast Judgement instantly or swap seals instantly as the White Swing hit a target in the original version and still get a command proc… you cant in classic, if you swap seals instantly on white swing in classic and resultantly before the calculation is parsed during the next spell batch you will not cast command… that is an indisputable change and correlation between the two versions of the game, and is documented in videos.

Looking further we also know that seal twisting affected both the inital hit and the following command proc in the original game, in classic you can only seal twist the command proc following a white swing once it has procced e.g proccing Seal of Justice off of Seal of Command… a result of the new seal cast not being in the same spell batch as the initiating white swing, seals in classic are applied to white swings in the same batch, that we know is definitely true… and is why command can be applied retroactively by paladins after a swing has already landed… this explains why we dont see double procs while twisting e.g 1 off the initial white and 1 off the procced command hit, like we did in the original game.

Finally Seal of Righteousness procs off of every melee hit no matter what for a paladin, even if the taget is immune it will say the target was immune. Based on this knowledge of the interaction it is pretty clear; we know the spell is not working correctly and we know how the interaction should work, if the system functioned correctly, you should be able to twist Seal of Righteousness off of it, and even if Seal of Command didnt return a Seal of Righteousness hit (which it should since it is for all intents and purposes a melee swing), the initial White Hit definitely should since every white hit returns SoR, resulting in a sequence of:
White Hit + SoR Hit + SoC Hit

However because the PPM calculation of SoC has been pushed back to the spell batch, it is impossible to return this sequence because the new application of SoR will be on a different Spell Batch to the white hit…

So once again, we know seal swapping/judgement casting could be perfomed as soon as the white hit occured in the original game, in classic it cant, we also know that batching isnt an authentic recreation of the system, it was an emulation of it… they literally announced it themselves in the initial post:

So if you are asking if I am sure; I am… however the reality is it isnt really a matter of whether im sure or not, the evidence undeniably proves where the issue lies, we know Seal of Command isnt performing in the same way as it originally did, and it is the cause of the issue.

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Alright, I’m looking into various threads and this is what has come up:

Cromer3535
2 points ·
8 months ago

Its seal weaving that you are talking about : ) Seal twisting is pretty much the same, but it only works with SoC and SoJ because the damage from soc is delayed by 0.5 sec, hence why the SoJ effect can trigger

bostonpigstar

1 point · [7 months ago]
I can confirm it works:
https://imgur.com/sfjjD5p

With that said, I’m going to engage in some “educated” speculation, based on the mechanics and lots of experience using seal twisting on Emerald Dream. I believe it should work like so:

Command into Righteousness -> Nothing happens. This is to be expected, as SoR doesn’t proc off of Crusader Strike in BC either. It’s an ability that strictly procs off of white hits (until a later change, which was reflected in the tooltip).

Command into Crusader -> Increased AP for the SoC hit. On Emerald Dream, this would give you a noticeable, but not massive, damage increase. I can’t tell if this is the case on current classic, because the reduced damage of each hit may be a factor.

Command into Light, Wisdom -> You will get the seal effect proc from light or wisdom. With a slow enough weapon, I believe this is guaranteed.

Command into Justice -> You will get the seal effect proc stun. Note that this may not proc even if twisted correctly.

In particular, look at that screenshot.

Mmm that screenshot actually shows exactly what I was talking about previously, the Seal of Justice proc isnt proccing off of the initial White Swing, it is actually proccing off of the following SoC hit, because the calculation to perform soc has already been performed and confirmed by the server in the spell batch parse which followed the initiating White Swing :slight_smile:

Through Seal Twisting with a fixed version of the system the initial white hit should also be able to proc any activated seal; including SoR because the initial hit is a White Swing, however it cant because you cant swap seals prior to the batch.

Here are some videos I made early in Classic investigating testing while leveling and gearing:

Seal of Crusader into Seal of Command Twisting - Retroactive Seal Application

Seal of Command Post-Hit Twisting Combinations

SoCr into SoR Twisting - Retroactive Seal Application

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As far as I’m aware, when you seal twist command you can’t get the other seal to proc on both the white and yellow hit. If you swap to SoC it procs off the white hit and has to be timed at the end of the last swing. If you swap from SoC you might get something if you time it right a little later without a bar.

That is the issue. Seal twisting has always worked best when you swap from SoC because it’s the only way to get the second seal to proc on the command proc. Classic makes this interaction impossible. A clarification from blizzard would be great as missing out on that double SoJ proc chance and that extra SoR damage off the white hit minimum sucks.

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2017 says hello

also, get in line

tldr - i don’t even play anymore because of the monkey coding that is Classic - the fact that you think the devs will fix this report or any other of the multiple paladin bugs or that a CM will answer your reporting me is cute to say the least

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NobleshieldToday at 12:17 PM

if (class == "PALADIN") { return; /* kek */ }

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mmm yes sadly that seems to be the case… i guess once again it comes down to waiting and seeing if the devs actually fix what is definitely a bug.

However given the not virtual but literal lack of relevant bug fixes for multiple months now… I would bet that at best Classic now has only a skeleton if any crew running maintenance and bug fixes, with the majority of its staff being tasked with either the release of new content, and the release of The Burning Crusade.

This bug however is one which affects paladins in Classic and then ramps up to a far greater effect and scale in The Burning Crusade, so it is one which will only get more apparent and impactful with time passing… with the advent of Seal of Blood and SoB+SoC Twisting in the TBC… based on that knowledge of what is to come, and the knowledge that this bug wont be swept under the rug with the end of classic and will more then likely be reported multiple times throughout TBC, you would hope that it would at least be slated for attention and consideration in the near future. :man_shrugging:

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One can only hope. Well, if this post gets to 1000 replies by the time the devs get back it’ll at least be looked at by an intermediary.

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haha very true, hmmm all of these new issues with spell batching zg and trading enchants… more and more issues popping up with this last-minute blanket system of Classic “spell-batching” which they implemented instead of actually attempting to recreate the original system… I wonder how they will address these issues now…

more then likely a quick fix resolution which requires minimum financial investment or scripting time and applies instant resolution purely to the enchants, rather then the comprehensive overhaul which needs to take place to make the spell batch system actually resemble the original games batching mechanic.

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Because paladins bad is vanilla apparently.

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I wouldnt say paladins are bad, unfortunately paladins are a class where the beauty lies in the detail, e.g reckoning and seal of command… and seemingly small bugs which would at first glance and at a surface level would appear to have a minimal impact, can actually prove to be severely impactful to the class and completely alter the way in which it should perform.

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Damn, blizzard finally responds to a lot of bug reports but nothing about paladins. If it isn’t nerfing paladins it isn’t worth mentioning.

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Well, yeah, I mean i agree. It feels like whenever paladins find something fun, though, it gets nerfed. And it feels like it gets nerfed mostly because everyone’s opinion of paladin is that, in classic, they’re bad.

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haha well I mean it certainly does feel like blizzard have only bothered to fix paladins when they bugged in a beneficial way, and have ignored every single fix which would actually strengthen the class and make it function correctly :sweat_smile:

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Unfortunately still no responses or testing of the bug it seems…

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