Specs most deserving of buffs/nerfs?

I mean it’s all contextual. Every wizard has a different counter (except ele), and are going to be weaker or stronger in those environments.

I loathe playing my boomy into rets/wars, wars in general, ferals, and dks. You give me any wizard comp and I thrive.

I hate the whole tier list concept, because none of that matters. On paper ferals are just the single best spec in the game rn, yet when push comes to shove they can look like complete dogs when they’re playing against comps/players who can outplay them or force them off.

In general, EVERYTHING is good rn (except fire), people just need to play the comp/playstyle that the spec requires into the meta. Hell, I don’t even think fire is that bad rn, but people haven’t put the effort into learning different builds/strats into it to fight the things it’s losing to, because they’d rather copy the strats and builds of the frost mages at the top.

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Yea I used to pick up ret as a “for fun” alt in past seasons. This iteration isn’t as fun for me. I like when damage pops, but outside of a fully modifier stacked crit on hammer of light, the damage breakdown just doesn’t do it for me this season.

Kind of like feral, I miss when my highest breakdown were big bites, and not rip +a billion other sources of dots - but I might be in the minority as far as what feral players wanted

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Higher caliber of players are attracked by the S tier.

Ret was no where to be found in the top5 last season so your argument is…

There are enough players doing SS to make attracktability a moot point.

P.S. Learn to use your defencive toolkit like BoF on your teamates. You’ll see why they are top tier now. BoF a Spriest to let him kit around a pillar alone, is close to an auto win.

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic… :wink:

I agree, which is wild because it feels like it USED to be the opposite. I used to love fighting ret/war in Dragonflight. I feel like I have difficulties with feral+sp or war/feral+ele now more than anything.

I also really wanna try elune’s chosen with the dot buff and 50% trees + big wrath nerf.

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I can send you my builds.

Elune’s Chosen is only actually better vs pet comps that you can w key the pet player ontop of (aka bm hunters). Under the right conditions you can one shot someone without them beinga ble to react, but it’s super RNG. There is no world EC will outpace KOTG unless KOTG gets slaughtered with nerfs, and EC gets insane buffs, because the single target just isn’t there.

And this is coming from a coper who only plays EC.

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See, I like that matchup personally. Only reason I dislike ret/war is because it just seems to last forever. The matchup itself doesn’t seem too bad though.

I’ve run it the entire season :slight_smile: It’s great

As for the topic, I don’t know to be honest. I think arms and ele are really strong. Ele is probably the spec I’ve had the most “wtf” deaths too. I just dislike playing into them for a myriad of reasons.

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The problem I have is that I don’t play boomy comps that are good into cleaves. My rogues don’t play sub or outlaw, my warrior is no longer a warrior player. Realistically all I queue is boomy/mage (and its not frost or arcane lol). The matchup is prob fine when you play an actual human comp, but when it’s a meme one it feels awful to play vs.

Is boomy/demo suited to ret/war? I mean I’m not saying it’s not challenging. They live forever. It just seems… I don’t know like, not meme-y I guess. Like it’s a well paced normal match. Unlike ele comps for instance.

How do you mean? Do you mean is it favored into ret/war, or is it suited to “play like ret/war” and just W key with synched stuns?

I think boomy+demo is fine and good, but you shouldn’t ever beat a warrior or ele team with it because of how strong tremor is.

I mean if I had the choice I would never play with another wizard vs any cleave unless either boomy or the other wizard can solo win the game without help.

If you played Boomy/lock into a war cleave, you’re going to have them w key your lock, you can’t really stop it, and you don’t have enough solo damage to be able to outpace the mana bar war. It’s ONLY winnable if they go boomy (they won’t), and they screw everything up (they will but it wont matter).

Outlaw got completely destroyed by the CDR nerf. They need to revert about 90% of the previous nerfs they’ve made to the spec if they want to keep this nerf. Give us back Take Your Cut, Enduring Brawler, un-nerf Float Like a Butterfly (or at least don’t make the previous 50% nerf stack with the new 20% one…), make it so Ace Up Your Sleeve behaves the same way as it does in PvE. Or just revert the 20% CDR nerf and try something else because that change was NOT it. The entire spec is a delicate balance, and this heavy-handed nerf threw absolutely everything in the gutter, so now we do zero meaningful damage. Meanwhile the rest of the specs in the game have crept up on rogue’s amount of CC, so even that isn’t a selling point anymore when it comes at the cost of not having a single button that hits for a million damage in a world where specs like Havoc (who has a very comparable amount of CC, mobility, and defensive utility) completely dwarf the amount of damage output Outlaw has. Or Arms hitting for 4 million Mortal Strikes into 3 million Executes within 1.5 seconds. Hell, even Survival hunter can hit for 6 million if they get a crit off Flanking Strike. Outlaw just has absolutely zero game-securing kill power so all of its CC and mobility is completely meaningless if your teammate (or you) can just die randomly in a global because of a crit.

We can’t even use the recently buffed stamina talent because we need to dedicate every available talent point to dealing such pitiful damage anyway.

Outlaw’s entire damage profile is 6 seconds every Vanish. That’s it. You save a disarm for it, or literally any other CC in the game, and it’s completely cooked. And when it doesn’t get to spend combo points in that window, it gets even LESS CDR than the 20% nerf.

It’s such a short-sighted change and it genuinely made one of the hardest and most skill expressive specs in the game into the absolute weakest. 100x the effort for 10% of the reward when you can just play a warrior and self-carry with Mortal Strike and Execute crits while your Bladestorm is unpeelable (despite still being able to kick and CC during it lmao). Let’s compare that to Killing Spree, which requires combo points, energy, and has a 1.5 minute cooldown. It breaks roots, but you have to already be within 10 feet of your target or else you can’t even use it for that. Meanwhile you can waste the entire cooldown by having a Binding Shot thrown at your feet, or a monk ranged disarming you from a mile away through your pre-evasion (because monk disarm is special and ignores it), and what’s even better is that when you DO get a full use of this cooldown, you can’t do ANYTHING until it’s finished. So a caster can just hard cast any CC in your face while you can’t kick it or CC them and it’ll complete before Killing Spree ends. Please for the love of god just make this ability immune to CC like Bladestorm, Celestial Conduit, Vengeful Retreat (Glimpse), Metamorphosis, etc. Outlaw is just way too easy to CC out of every tiny window of damage we actually have. Both Subterfuge and Killing Spree are just hard countered by any CC. Literally any CC. It could be a triple DR’d Shockwave from a Warrior and it still instantly cancels Killing Spree no matter how many combo points you spent. And a 3 second Mortal Coil that sends you running away from the Lock is more than enough to completely ignore a 6 second Subterfuge window when they still have to make it back to you (without Shadowstep anymore mind you). And that’s assuming they didn’t just hard cast Fear in your face while you were in the Mortal Coil anyway. Or if you stun them first, maybe you just get Axe Tossed out of it if they’re a Demo Lock. It’s just far too easy to cancel these windows and there are too many checkboxes in the game that need to be checked before Outlaw can do any damage at all. And even then it’s STILL 100% RNG based with Ace procs (which, again, are nerfed even more in PvP).

It’s just… so bad right now. There is genuinely zero reward for playing one of the hardest specs in the game, and I think that’s just a horrible thing to strive for balance-wise. But there are like 10 people who actually play Outlaw so we can’t cry as loud as other specs when they’re “unplayable” (despite never being even remotely as bad as Outlaw is right now). This is what being unplayable actually looks like. The spec straight up does not function right now with these CDR nerfs.

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At the bare minimum, AR needs to be reworked. At least in PvP. You can’t guarantuee 100% uptime even in PvE, and yet you’re expected to maintain it… in pvp? It’s asnine. As you said, all it takes is minimal CC to make the rogue lose AR (not just bricking crackshot windows and KS) and make him redundant until you can claw it back. This spec has not been well thought out in the slightest.
And yeah, CDR nerf on top of that trying to keep AR up…
They have no clue what they’re doing and it’s genuinely a sad and embarassing endictment on whoever’s making these dumbfounded decisions.

I mean it’s pretty clear no one knows what to do with outlaw.

If you give it CDR, it’s an unkillable demon that does too much. If you give it perma AR or high damage, it becomes a monster at damage that just farms everyone.

It’s in a grey area where you can’t do anything to it without putting it too far one way or the other, unless you remove the benefits of haste from the kit, and focus much harder into the crit/mastery aspect and try to turn it into an anti melee spec

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I agree it’s a minefield, but it’s a minefield because they designed the class to revolve around CDR and constant AR uptime and has a huge knock on effect for everything else.
If they want to use CDR nerf as a way of tuning the class then the spec needs an entire rework in PvP.
Maybe nerf adrenaline rush but severely reduce the specs depedancy on requiring it to be up at all times.
Last few matches, I had around 35-40% uptime on AR, and that’s when none of those guys even had the basic common sense to peel me.

Boomy can’t get buffs until asbur is forced to play something else for his carries

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Yes, what’s what I meant because that’s the comp I play this season and I’ve done fairly well into them.

I do well into it. Games are harder when they go the lock but I feel I have enough peel to prolong the game long enough to whittle away ret’s defensives most of the time. Definitely is a tough match but I find it find regardless of the difficulty. Kinda like mage rogue. I always found those fun too. Team types I don’t enjoy are like… mm destro for instance. That type of game is ugh. Still can do fine but again, from a fun factor it’s annoying.

Ya, I think that boomy is the 2nd best caster into most melee cleaves (some exceptions, obviously) because you can jsut dot and run while your partner kills stuff. If they go your partner or just go you in stuns w/out skin it’s a different story, though.

That being said, 90% of my wins aren’t big setups or precog clones, but just dragging people to bad spots and forcing bad trades because EVERYONE W keys the boomy since they’re so (relatively) squishy.

Pmuch this lol. Everyone chases me 80 yards away from their healer. 1800 or 2500cr. Doesn’t matter. Lol

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I wanna beat that chicken with a bat like it’s a piñata :dracthyr_a1:

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