10/09/2018 04:13 PMPosted by
Kyveli
What level up? He could hold his own against Genn in Legion, and suddenly the scenario puts him above every Horde character, Sylvanas included. Her inner monologue was that she could possibly handle Malfurion or Tyrande, but that if both showed up she would outright die.
Apparently getting a fresh human body is equivocal to being the prime pupil of Cenarius and uncovering the secrets of the Emerald Dream for 10,000 years combined with being the avatar of a wrathful goddess from a ritual that hasn't been used for millenia because it kills anyone who tries.
No wonder Arthas could take on just about anyone before. Being a non-decomposed undead human apparently makes you a walking god.
Nathanos is far more skilled than Tyrande when it comes to combat. We have plenty of story justificaton for skill to beat out raw power. Tyrande may carry a bow, but she's far from being known as legendary for it. And to be fair, he was practically legendary while he was alive. He was the only human to cut the mustard to qualify for membership in the Elven Rangers of Quel'thelas. Presumably it still took the personal sponsorship of Sylvannas to make the title stick.
And it may very well be that the "Night Warrior" is overbilled as a power up. Especially if the fight takes place in daytime.... which is still Elune's Kryptonite.
However in regards to this storyline we're not complaining about characters' reactions or emotions or deep inner thoughts.
While players aren't complaining about them, I suspect it matters more than they think. Often you hear that what devs intend as a victory "doesn't feel like a victory." While players focus on plot beats that "undercut" the victory, I suspect the problem has more to do with presentation in the scene itself.
The more I think about it, the more I feel like the writers tend to
script for a movie or comic book when they should be
writing gameplay. This idea sort of got away from me, so I made a separate thread about it here:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769637027#1Mediocre writers perhaps.
Becoming a mediocre commercial writer for most people involves spending 10 years treating writing as a full-time job. Success in that field even at a middling level without passion and sacrifice practically doesn't happen. I may not like Golden's writing, but I still respect what she's done.
I'm not saying audiences are obliged to like writing, but I think it helps to empathize with the writer. I'm not saying this about any of us, necessarily, but I think there's a general tendency among media consumers these days to be kind of entitled and gross.
Nathanos is far more skilled than Tyrande when it comes to combat. We have plenty of story justificaton for skill to beat out raw power. Tyrande may carry a bow, but she's far from being known as legendary for it. And to be fair, he was practically legendary while he was alive.
I recall no one talking about his combat skill, only his tactical acumen. As said before it would be understandable if he'd set any sort of traps or plots beforehand, but duking it out in melee range with Punished Tyrande is stupid if he walks away unscathed, doubly so when Malfurion joins in.
And it may very well be that the "Night Warrior" is overbilled as a power up. Especially if the fight takes place in daytime.... which is still Elune's Kryptonite.
The sun is entirely eclipsed and Nathanos notes that it's unnaturally dark. It might as well be night.
10/09/2018 04:13 PMPosted by
Kyveli
...
No but he had to get a level up to become plot relevant. If he didnt get some other horde b lister would of. Then we would be having the debate on whether Bob the troll was a self insert.
At least they went with a character that had been around forever.
What level up? He could hold his own against Genn in Legion, and suddenly the scenario puts him above every Horde character, Sylvanas included. Her inner monologue was that she could possibly handle Malfurion or Tyrande, but that if both showed up she would outright die.
He, like any other character, is as powerful as the story needs. Horde has fewer major characters than alliance. Because of this there was always going to be some b list character made much more significant.
If it wasnt nathanos, it just would of been Rokkan or Belmont, or someone else.
People acting like Tyrande switching specs to DPS was going to make her unstoppable. The alliance already has a jaina they dont need two.
... Apparently getting a fresh human body is equivocal to being the prime pupil of Cenarius and uncovering the secrets of the Emerald Dream for 10,000 years combined with being the avatar of a wrathful goddess from a ritual that hasn't been used for millenia because it kills anyone who tries.
No wonder Arthas could take on just about anyone before. Being a non-decomposed undead human apparently makes you a walking god.
Nathanos is far more skilled than Tyrande when it comes to combat. We have plenty of story justificaton for skill to beat out raw power. Tyrande may carry a bow, but she's far from being known as legendary for it. And to be fair, he was practically legendary while he was alive. He was the only human to cut the mustard to qualify for membership in the Elven Rangers of Quel'thelas. Presumably it still took the personal sponsorship of Sylvannas to make the title stick.
And it may very well be that the "Night Warrior" is overbilled as a power up. Especially if the fight takes place in daytime.... which is still Elune's Kryptonite.
What good is a bow when a wrathful goddess and the very world you stand on turn against you?
Original, Quel'Thalas days Nathanos was undoubtedly a self-insert. Doesn't seem to be the case now.
10/09/2018 04:13 PMPosted by
Kyveli
What level up? He could hold his own against Genn in Legion, and suddenly the scenario puts him above every Horde character, Sylvanas included. Her inner monologue was that she could possibly handle Malfurion or Tyrande, but that if both showed up she would outright die.
Apparently getting a fresh human body is equivocal to being the prime pupil of Cenarius and uncovering the secrets of the Emerald Dream for 10,000 years combined with being the avatar of a wrathful goddess from a ritual that hasn't been used for millenia because it kills anyone who tries.
No wonder Arthas could take on just about anyone before. Being a non-decomposed undead human apparently makes you a walking god.
I agree that he shouldn't be anywhere near as powerful as malfurion, but it isn't just the body. Sylvanas has the valkyr use the same stuff on him that they use on her -- and she has a sudden power increase, too.
10/10/2018 05:28 AMPosted by
Treng
I agree that he shouldn't be anywhere near as powerful as malfurion, but it isn't just the body. Sylvanas has the valkyr use the same stuff on him that they use on her -- and she has a sudden power increase, too.
Still doesnât make sense. We should never have beaten Arthas, then ,if if had entire legions of valks that could infuse any random corpse with the type of god-tier powers-as-the-plot-demands that weâre seeing out of Sylvie and Natty this expansion.
Some combination of insert/creatorâs pet/justifying raid boss abilities is the most likely explanation.
10/09/2018 05:21 AMPosted by
Daiza
Actual question: do we know Nathanos is someone's self insert or is this just the end result of the hate train people have been building since he actually became relevant in Legion?
Its mostly because of the hate train. There's a few screenshots of the writer from twitter taking selfies with the sylvanas statue but it comes off as someone who's excited to work at Blizzard.
BFA has been a very controversial expansion so a lot of players and it brings out a lot of arguments on these forums.
10/09/2018 05:21 AMPosted by
Daiza
Actual question: do we know Nathanos is someone's self insert or is this just the end result of the hate train people have been building since he actually became relevant in Legion?
Its mostly because of the hate train. There's a few screenshots of the writer from twitter taking selfies with the sylvanas statue but it comes off as someone who's excited to work at Blizzard.
BFA has been a very controversial expansion so a lot of players and it brings out a lot of arguments on these forums.
Maybe the if writer takes some selfies in front of the illidan statue being excited people wont see his bias anymore
10/10/2018 05:12 PMPosted by
Katiera
Maybe the if writer takes some selfies in front of the illidan statue being excited people wont see his bias anymore
Now that you mention it who wrote Xe'ra?
Its mostly because of the hate train. There's a few screenshots of the writer from twitter taking selfies with the sylvanas statue but it comes off as someone who's excited to work at Blizzard.
What part of, "it's like looking into a Dark Mirror..." aren't you getting? It's not because of the Sylvanas selfie.
I think itâs a case of Blizzard overexposing a character thinking the fandom loves it as much as they do.
The issue is we shouldn't be followinga single character throughout the entire expansion
Fair, but weâve done this with Illidan, Khadgar, Velen, Yrel, Thrall⌠why the special hate for Nathanos?
Any character popularized by players from vanilla can't really be called a self insert. Is saurfang a self insert? Dude is only in the story because he cleaved alliance players real good.
Nathanos was brought back into the story in cata and still didn't get used in the story until legion. He is far overdue all the lore he is getting now. He is a prime example of what it is to be forsaken and should have gotten more story back in cata.
Y'know, I'm more of the opinion that Nathanos is a vicarious character for him, rather than an outright self-insert. There's still aspects of self-insertion, but it's not full throttle.
If you think Nathanos isn't a self insert at this point you are the one being delusional.
10/10/2018 05:20 PMPosted by
Kazala
Its mostly because of the hate train. There's a few screenshots of the writer from twitter taking selfies with the sylvanas statue but it comes off as someone who's excited to work at Blizzard.
What part of, "it's like looking into a Dark Mirror..." aren't you getting? It's not because of the Sylvanas selfie.
That's the only tweet that I will say gives credit to your argument. However BfA has been a very controversial expansion and the hate train is going strong right now. I don't like Nathanos either but I'm not gonna jump on your hate train and blame one guy who doesn't write the entire story. There's a team of writers behind him and everything gets approved by other people.
I understand BFA has big problems but if you want get your torches and pitchforks ready, then you should blame the team that approved the story rather than one guy.
They 404'd my thread on this and banned me from posting. This is Sonichu-level writing. The head writer demanded a fresh dopamine hit so they let him turn is fanfic of Nathanos becoming a handsome 'dark mirror' of himself, so he bed her in WoW.
http://questifer.tumblr.com/post/178890244576/have-you-seen-the-tweets-from-the-wow-writer-who
"Yes, he turned Nathanos into his OC, but he's our boss so we'll go along with it" Good job, Blizzard. You've really outdone yourselves.
Let me get this straight. In response to Blizzard deleting your thread, you're going to post the contents of it in another half unrelated thread?
This seems like the course of action one takes to deliberately get forum banned.
I understand BFA has big problems but if you want get your torches and pitchforks ready, then you should blame the team that approved the story rather than one guy.
So, a couple things.
First of all, I think the reaction to the complaints about Nathanos being a writer's pet or avatar or self-insert or whatever has been far more extreme than the complaints themselves. There's no more hate for Nathanos than any of a hundred other issues with the BfA story.
Folks are taking this like we're calling Steve Danuser a child molester or something. We're pointing out an amateur-hour tendency in his writing. He's not being accused of a crime.
Second, I don't really understand the "blame the team, not just one guy, someone has to sign off on this" argument. That line had some merit when Christie Golden was getting blasted for
Before the Storm, but it doesn't apply here. We're talking about the guy who literally signs off on this stuff. Steve is Christie's boss.
Put aside for a moment the relatively tame accusation that Nathanos has become Steve's wish-fulfillment avatar in the story and that's why he's ubiquitous in BfA and outsmarts or overpowers everyone he faces while raining endless snark and banging the cold-hearted elf pin-up who loves no one else.
There's a fairly broad consensus among folks who care about the lore - on this forum and elsewhere - that the BfA story is a dumpster fire. If you think folks shouldn't be aiming criticism at the Lead Narrative Designer right now, I don't know what to tell you, except that the very person you're defending would most likely disagree with you. You won't find a lot of folks in leadership positions who would say, "don't blame me, blame my team".
1 Like
10/13/2018 04:05 PMPosted by
Kazala
First of all, I think the reaction to the complaints about Nathanos being a writer's pet or avatar or self-insert or whatever are far more extreme than the complaints themselves. There's no more hate for Nathanos than any of a hundred other issues with the BfA story.
Unfortunately Nathanos and his Mary Sue status have, much like many issues today, become a partisan one where it shouldn't be. Likely because he's only being truly exposed as such due to an interaction with
Alliance heroes he realistically shouldn't have any place beating, holding off without some Home Alone tier traps, in melee combat.
No one is saying Tyrande and Malfurion could 2vThe Entire Horde, but if they can't even 2vNathanos than that puts them below Genn Greymane, who is just
a guy.