Some thoughts on existing talents

Class Tree
[Dominate Mind] is an AWESOME spell. It is super fun to use, and very thematic to the Priest fantasy. Functionally however, it is frustrating. The low 30 sec duration, a matching 30 sec cooldown, and a cast time which leaves you vulnerable to your MC target. Considering the potential power of this talent, these downsides are most likely intentionally designed to ‘balance’ the spell. Personally, I would really appreciate some QOL changes to make the spell feel better to use, with maybe some restrictions placed in order to prevent game breaking shenanigans. In outdoor content and delves, it would be so much better if Dominate Mind had a 90 sec duration, or at the very least, a 20 sec CD with the ability to cast Dominate Mind on an already MC’d target, allowing you to refresh the CC without turning the mob hostile again. Then maybe in raids, where MC is more likely to see abuse, retain the 30 sec CD and and duration.

[Void Shield] This could be such a cool talent, but it’s severely underutilized because the shield simply isn’t large enough to take any meaningful amounts of damage. Even for Disc Priests, which can superpower their shields with certain buffs, the amount of Shadow Damage that actually converts into additional shield health is very low and the talent stands no chance at competing with other talents in its tier. Void Shield might be a lot better if the additional shield health was accumulated by shadow damage BEFORE the next PW:S cast, similarly to how Druids can increase their next instance of Regrowth Healing through their damage.

[Cauterizing Shadows] Another talent that sounds cool and is really thematic, but doesn’t do much of anything in practice. Even when taking Disc priest into account, which can take talents that will consume the duration of SW:P, Cauterizing Shadows is a waste of a talent right now, especially when considering its position competing against some of the best talents in the priest class tree. The healing is negligible in multi-dotting scenarios, and isn’t even worth mentioning in single target. This talent might see more use if it simply healed a nearby ally for a portion of its damage done, like it would during Vampiric Embrace. This would have some very interesting synergy with Disc Priest talents as well. But knowing Blizzard’s apprehension toward passive-healing, Cauterizing Shadows might just be better off being replaced by [From Darkness Comes Light] in the talent tree.


Discipline Tree
[Encroaching Shadows] / [Revel In Darkness] These two talents should really just be baked into one. I know that Disc is sort of suffering from a lack of talents to choose from, but splitting functionality like this doesn’t really do anything to offer more choices, and tends to just feel bad. Maybe if one of these talents did something more interesting and impactful, it could justify its own spot on the tree. Something like “Your Shadow Word: Pain damage is increased by an amount equal to your mastery” or something.

[Ultimate Penitence] The 4 minute cooldown on this spell doesn’t feel great, especially considering the actual strength of the spell. Of course, in the context of Disc as a whole, who already has a very powerful cooldown in Evangelism, a 4min CD Ultimate Penitence makes more sense as sort of a ‘supplementary’ cooldown. The spell might be more interesting if there were talents available in the spec tree that allowed you to deviate from a Shadowfiend/Mindbender-centric build, and focus more on an Ultimate Penitence focused build. Maybe Void Summoner should be a choice node with another talent that decreases the cooldown on Ultmate Penitance by 50%.

[Inner Quietus] This talent is fine, it just feels bad knowing that Oracle has the same talent with twice the potency. Also, increasing the absorb of Power Word: Shield doesn’t really fit the Voidweaver theme. Instead, maybe Inner Quietus would be better if it did something like “Casting Power Word: Shield increases the damage of your Shadow Word: Pain by 25% for 12 seconds”. This would be more in line with the void theme, while also maintaining the intent behind the talent to incentivize casting PW:S as a Voidweaver.

[Void Empowerment] A 1 sec increased duration on your 5 lowest Atonements is a very difficult option to pick against the alternative, which gives you 3+ extra casts of Void Blast. It is still an interesting option, but +2 sec might be more enticing so that a Power Word: Radiance cast before Mind Blast would have atonements that last long enough to benefit from Collapsing Void.


Shadow Tree
[Shadow Crash] / [Whispering Shadows] These two talents should be baked into one. There are virtually no situations where you would only prefer one without the other. Further, it’s been a long pain point for Shadow Priests to be so restricted by the 20 sec CD of Shadow Crash, especially in lower forms of content where new enemies are constantly being introduced to the fight long before Shadow Crash becomes available again. Now I understand that some people want to continue the DoT maintenance aspect of Shadow Priest gameplay, but with the current design of Shadow Priest as a whole, any situation where you need to apply your DoTs one by one feels very detrimental to the pace of combat. Unless additional mechanics were introduced that made manually multi-dotting enemies a rewarding gameplay loop, Shadow Crash should have a lower cooldown and a second charge so that Shadow Priests can more quickly proceed to the fun part of their rotation without feeling too restricted by their Shadow Crash cooldown.

[Unfurling Darkness] An interesting talent. Sometimes taken to make spread-out multi-dotting easier, or to have another source of instant burst damage. Would probably feel much better in both cases if it was a buff that procc’d every 8 seconds, and stacked up to 2 times. This would remove the awkwardness of having to fully cast a raw VT in order to proc the instant VT, and then having to wait for the internal cooldown to do it again.

[Maddening Touch] Considering the long history of nerfs to DoTs, and most of our multi-target damage actually coming from Psychic Link, this talent struggles to find power and see play. Even its increased Insanity generation falls flat when compared to the output of other talents. This might be a better talent if it abandoned the increased Vampiric Touch damage, and doubled down on the insanity generation. While doing the reverse would be cool, it’s pretty apparent that we no longer want maintenance DoTs becoming a primary source of damage.

[Deathspeaker] Deathspeaker is generally disliked in PVE contexts because it adds to a very busy rotation. The talent itself is fine, and even enjoyed, but when added to the plethora of buffs, procs, and resources Shadow needs to pump out, it becomes a source of frustration. Instead of removing it and depriving the Shadow tree of a very cool talent with interesting synergies, I think we should try iterating on it to make it fit the rotation more seamlessly even during Shadow’s busiest moments. So, “in addition to SW:D’s current effects, it also unleashes your Mind Spike/Mind Flay: Insanity if you have either available.” I considered giving SW:D its own insanity version, but realized that having 2 different spells compete for the same proc only added more complexity to a spec that doesn’t need it. By simply casting MS:I and MF:I simultaneously with SW:D, it frees the Shadow Priest from deciding between conflicting resources, while still giving it access to a very cool proc to enjoy.


Holy Tree
[Gales of Song] / [Seraphic Crescendo] Competing with a whole 60 sec reduced CD on Divine Hymn is very difficult thing to accomplish, and Gales of Song’s current tuning doesn’t even make it a close comparison. One way to bridge the gap would be to reduce Divine Hymn’s cooldown to a 2.5min CD, and make Seraphic Crescendo reduce the CD by 30 seconds. This would give Gales of Song a little more room to compete, but even then, the additional healing would have to come from more than just +6 stacks of prayer of mending every second.

[Empowered Renew] While this talent does accomplish to replace Circle of Healing’s old functionality as a cooldown reducer for Serenity, the 60% increased healing when cast is very underwhelming, even when all other renew-synergistic talents are taken. This should probably be buffed significantly.

[Divinity] / [Eternal Sanctity] Due to the raw power of Holy Words, Divinity is almost always outclassed by Eternal Sanctity. The power gap could be narrowed if Divnity simply increased the healing of Heal and Prayer of Healing for the entire duration of Apotheosis, instead of only applying to the first 3.

[Light in the Darkness] The power of this talent is insane. It is simply too good to not take in every situation. It is made so much better by its accompanying talents here in the final talent tier; Miracle Worker, Holy Celerity, and Divine Image. With talents like these, the power Holy Word talent builds will always outclass others. I think in this case, the power of Holy Words should be brought up a bit baseline, and this talent should be nerfed to allow other talents more competition.

[Divine Word] Is a very interesting ability, but its potential is cut down by its 1 minute cooldown and extra key bind required. I think this would be a lot more compelling of a choice if instead, the buff durations were reduced, but were applied to every cast of a Holy Word. To balance things out further, Divine Word would also have to become a choice node with Miracle Worker. The choice would be: “Have 2 charges of holy words, or have 1 charge that gives you a short buff after each use”

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Please fix Holy’s toolkit issues in Mythic+ before changing things just for the sake of changing them.

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I do not understand what is happening to priests. Idk if we may of accidentally made a Blizzard developer mad or something, but priest is the most lacking healer class imo.

Disc and holy still lack any sort of silence despite every other healer having them. In order to even get a stun you have to waste a talent, and only on holy. I don’t consider MC a good alternative (when looking at a PvP perspective anyways.)

Ultimate Penitence is just an underwhelming ability with it’s current 4 minute CD, compared to R Druid who has tranq on a 3 minute cooldown, with an added bonus of being able to reduce it’s CD by another 30 seconds and take reduced damage and immunity to knockbacks or reduce all druid spell CDs by 20 seconds.
Ultimate Penitence’s CD was offset with cooldown reduction per penance bolt fired but I guess Blizzard axed it with 11.1.

I still do not understand the point of Shackle Undead being a talent. It shouldn’t be. What’s it’s actual use? How many enemies do we face on a day to day basis that are undead?

Losing Purge the Wicked was kind of sad. I understand why we pruned it, but the whole thing about Disc priest is you’re a mix of light and dark. I thematically liked being able to “Purge the Wicked” over applying a shadow word. Small complaint, I know, but one that bothers me.

I was also disappointed to lose Holy Word Salvation. I thought it was a pretty cool ability. Had a high CD, but was fairly easy to get down. Holy word salvation made me feel like a holy priest. Calling upon the light in a desperate time to heal everyone and apply renew and mending to them. It was a cool fantasy to me.

I also hate how we lost the ability to sacrifice Spirit to cast redemption on an ally. That’s helped a few times in the past where I made a dumb mistake, got killed, but was able to still help by reviving someone else who was down.

I’m kind of at the point where I’m just failing to understand why I should choose Holy or Disc over MW, RDruid, RShaman, HPal, or Presvoker. It seems like everyone else has anything I could find on priest but with more added utility.

Both holy and disc priests are some of the best performing healers right now in all forms of PvE content, and Disc in PvP. Both specs are seeing lots of play from normal to mythic raid, and from 2-12 keys, though disc starts dominating beyond that point. Personally, I would be fine trading in power infusion for my own interrupt as a healer, But even without it, disc is still the top choice for healer in most group comps.

Priest has been getting plenty of attention, iteration, and changes that have been requested from them. It’s not as dire as you might fear.

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The thing was, PtW was removed because they wanted to push us towards a balance of light and shadow, specifically to enable Twilight Equilibrium. But, you know… they kind of overlooked that the tree, and Voidweavers in particular, are already drowning in Shadow spells. During an Entropic+Mindbender burn, Priests don’t cast a single Holy spell. It was a ill-thought-out change that only further buried TE into irrelevancy.

It’s about proccing Answered Prayers, not increasing the healing done during the channeling of Divine Hymn. Wowhead suggests NOT taking the cooldown to Divine Hymn, for the record, so I don’t think it’s hard to compete against–I think some people are convinced that it’s already better.

Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.

If both specs are so good, then why are all of your recent keys have been completed in Disc and none in Holy?

None of the major holy priest concerns (lack of utility, disfunctional renew, PoM, Spirit of Redemption etc) has been addressed with the recent “rework” with they did.

How about you go back to playing your overbusted discipline priest and not speak on behalf of Holy Priests, who have been languishing as the worst m+ spec since the very start of TWW?

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It was never my intention to imply Holy Priests didn’t need any more changes. I just pointed out that their situation is not as dire as people might think. There are two healing priests at 3.2k m+ score 3 weeks into the season, one of them being disc and one of them being holy. Admittedly, yes, Disc is FOTM right now and is the de-facto choice for a lot of pugs. And while disc certainly has an easier time of things, it’s not as if Holy is entirely incapable of offering a competitive alternative.

I just made this thread to talk about some talents I thought were being overlooked, while offering some ideas for changes that weren’t too radically different from their original design. I think people would be more inclined to participate or even consider thoughts shared on the forums if we maintained some sense of pragmaticism and level-headedness. People tend to be turned off from discussions involving a lot of emotional charge, regardless of whether that energy is understandable, given how much players personally invest in their classes and characters.

I appreciate your clarifications, and while I agree that the situation with holy priest raiding is not as bad, the situation in m+ is indeed dire in my opinion. Apart from Holy, I play very actively 3 other specs (blood DK, prot pally and MM hunter) and none of them has the same amount of dead / dysfunctional spells and talents as holy priest does, in fact I don’t think any of those specs have dead spells, while for Holy Priest I can give you a list.

Calling current Holy Priest “some of the best performing healers all forms of PvE” just triggered me, sorry if I sounded rude to you.

Anyway, I will try to give my thoughts on your initial post:
General
[Dominate Mind] - with proper haste, weakauras you can keep a target almost CC locked for entire dungeons, but such approach is not accessible to everyone. Moreoever the short duration isn’t just inconvenience, it eats up a lot of priest’s attention, so yeah, having it at 60-90 seconds duration would be a great improvement.

[Void Shield] I see how empowering this talent will create unfair advantage to Shadow Priest & Disc Priest, which I, as a holy, am not happy about. How about creating a choice node to accumulate additional absorb either of shadow damage or holy healing done to other people? But even then I am afraid that with current tuning Holy will be end up a loser of any changes of this talent.

[Cauterizing Shadows] Again your idea is designed work for Disc and Shadow, I do not see how Holy can benefit from it and making a strong spec stronger while weak spec weaker does not sound like a spectacular idea.

[Holy}:
I see no point discussing Holy’s minor details, when huge problems remain unsolved:

  • 7 talents designed around a single spell - Prayer of Mending - which is severely undertuned, does not do any meaningful healing even after you invest all 7 talents.
  • Dysfunctional Spirit of Redemption that must be replaced by Spirit of Redeemer (you actively assume Angel Form getting immunity, bonus to healing and mana free casts without need to die).
  • Prayer of Healing is unviable trash even after all of their so called “rework”;
  • lack of offensive utility (give Psychic Scream Silencing effect);
  • lack of defensive utility
  • Circle of Healing and HW: Salvation should have been properly tuned up, not removed completely! It was such a foolish decision to remove them in the first place.
    etc etc.
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Class Tree

Change Phantasm from “Removes snare effects when Fade is activated” to “Immune to snare effects while Fade is active”

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At the least, Phantasm should also remove root effects.

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I wish Idol of Y’shaarj was an active ability to summon the Thing from Beyond when you have the required number of Apparitions proc’d. Too many times it pops during inopportune moments where I wouldn’t be able to use its full potential.

Another thing I’d love is if Psychic Link also proc’d from SW:P, so I wouldn’t feel too gimped while trying to dot stuff on the run.

Cauterizing shadows is a bit weird, I agree. It should probably just make SW:pain do some damage up front on cast and/or when it spreads. Little tiny bit of extra atonement healing on the tank when going into an encounter/setting up some SW:Pain’s on pull kinda thing.

Void Shield I haven’t tried it, seems kinda meh. If it extended the uptime on my personal PW shield and recharged it at the same time it could possibly be useful on Oracle with the huge PW shields I can get ( plus the talent that makes PW shields on myself bigger in the Oracle Tree ). Most shields are still eaten up pretty quickly though tbh so I don’t know if it would do much for us. It would be neat if a portion of shadow damage we did shielded us too.

Agree here.

Assuming you mean inner focus? I kinda love the rework tbh. flat crit chance to all the important spells just feels good for Oracle. I feel like the theme is perfect as it is on the light themed side of the tree.

Adding in some:

Oracle tree:
Miraculous Recovery should buff PW:life for Oracle significantly imo.

Assured Safety should buff Prayer of Mending’s healing for oracle a bit more

Class tree:
Shackle Undead should also be able to shackle demons

Phantasm should remove roots

Dispel Magic should be baseline

Improved Purify should add poison and disease cleanse to purify

Un-couple From Darkness Comes Light and Protective light. Kinda silly they are on the same node.

Translucent Image and Improved Fade could be combined tbh

Buff PW:Life for Oracle disc :3

Choice node that changes fear into a balance druid like interrupt - or let us pick up psychic terror to fear a single enemy for 3-4 seconds.