I see a lot of arguments on these forums about the various ways you can self-impose limitations or difficulty if you want (take off gear to make Torghast harder, just use your ground mounts if you don’t like flying, find groups in trade if you don’t like LFG and then walk to the dungeon, etc).
These arguments don’t work and it’s not necessarily because people want to control the way other people play, and it’s not because they want to gatekeep you, and it’s not (only) because they’re elitists or whatever else.
Those arguments don’t work because the fabric of the game changes when things are made easier or more difficult. You feel a bit weird for doing self-imposed challenges while the world around you just moves faster, more efficiently, and more powerfully.
These people advocate for more challenges because it just feels different to be forced into a challenging situation than it does to take a piece of gear off or whatever. And that feeling doesn’t only extend to their own play. Using only grounding mounts doesn’t solve the problem where the world on the ground just feels empty for example. It just makes you move more slowly than everyone else.
Just to be clear, I’m not advocating for any of these changes, least of all making Torghast harder or removing flying mounts. But I do just want to make clear that arguments like this are incredibly intellectually dishonest and show a clear lack of understanding of how changes to a game played by millions of people affect the fabric of the game’s reality. Saying “well you could just make it harder on yourself” lays bear your own inability to understand perspectives beyond the self.
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i don’t like abstract art.
if i have to decide what it means, I don’t need your painting to imagine stuff.
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Some players are just better than others. It is what it is.
I wrote a long rant about how I think the difficulty of dungeons and raids is tuned too high and a significant amount of responders told me to get good. 
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But it’s not a question of only skill, really, because the version of WoW some people want isn’t always harder, it’s often just more time-consuming and more socially dependent.
embrace the badness. we can’t all be merciless gladiators. the world needs merciless janitors.
(my pvp rank probably).
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Sounds like a personal problem.
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Sounds like you’ve taken them a bit more than they were meant. I don’t believe the people who stated for example ‘take your gear off for a challenge’ meant it as a serious solution.
However the suggestion in itself is making consideration to the fact that the challenge is still difficult for players on a lower item level.
I’ll just use the same argument that always gets thrown to people who just want to have fun and not be stressed out by tedious, Dark Souls level difficulty.
If you like hardcore challenges. Maybe this game isn’t for you.
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Many games have challenges that have self-imposed challenges. Like many final fanasy games had lvl 1 runs. Kingdom hearts sometimes have these types of items too.
I agree with the premise of the thread. Not sure what else to say aside from: Struggle compels group interactions and teamwork to surmount obstacles and that’s sort of the point of an MMO. If the struggle or difficult situation can be meaningfully implemented (a hard raid boss, Torghast, slower progression) then it seems more than worthwhile for the longterm.
Better to struggle with friends than wipe the floor with content alone.
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So i come from a different gaming background than most. I used to love survival horror games because they often had challenging puzzles to solve. So i get that need for that kind of stuff i do. Butt torg isnt that. Making mobs hit harder and have more hp doesnt “increase” challenge for me. It just makes torg a real chore for people who dont have many hours a day to play.
Edit: now if they added special little tricks to defeating a boss or some kind of platform puzzle to solve then im interested. Like those tile slider puzzles on gates…i love things like that.
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You have your challenges: mythic raiding; high ranked pvp; high key mythic +.
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While i come from a different background where i like large open worlds to cause chaos in, i also agree just upping the damage and HP numbers isn’t challenging at all. Especially if the AI is just dumb from the get-go, upping the numbers isn’t going to do much but be tedious and frustrating then genuinely challenging.
People whining about nerfs don’t realize that blizzard tracks the so called “failure” rate for each of its content. If its rate is too high, they will nerf it. And nerf it to the ground. Obviously, they are still spooked by cataclysm effect.
This has how its been for at least last 10 years. They will nerf raids/dungeons as well if its failure rate is higher than expected.
I’m not going to suggest any of those things. But I am going to suggest changing your expectations. torghast is visions revamped, with a currency. The currency is tied to torghast because they didn’t want rng legendary nightmare like in legion. torghast should be viewed and expected as that, then there won’t be any disappointment.
If you view keys, mythic +, pvp and raid as what is supposed to be challenging, then you won’t be disappointed, because it is.