Play-style is all too busy. Clean it up like SL times. Right now final verdict is being spammed with little felt effect. Attention is much more focused on resource bars to ensure we are not overly stacking holy power. Being able to generate a lot of holy power is not a buff; it’s a nerf because anything overpowered will get tuned, and eventually you end up with more mechanics to do the same damage.
Say blizzard gives you a bunch of fancy abilities or talents that allow you to cast more final verdict - wow that’s so strong, awesome. Then they realized you are doing so much damage, so they tune down final verdict. What you end up with is the same damage but having to do a lot more busy work.
Reduce holy power generation, increase effects of holy power spending abilities.
They must really love all the button smashing without impact. On my fury I am smashing buttons and I’m criting 3-5M with execute. Rampage and MS built up feels impactful. On ret I’m constantly trying to spend holy power so they don’t go to waste and my final verdict hits like raging blow or bloodthirst. Honestly they feel about the same as spamming clawing shadow on DK. The resource management is somehow worse than DK. In SL every holy power feels impactful, and well earned.
Your comment is reductive. You are quick to answer for other people while assuming the worst.
I agree that the spammy nature of our play style has strayed a bit too far from the more methodical approach ret paladin has had to their gameplay in the past. I think Art of War would be a good target in reducing it’s proc rate to stem the flow of holy power generation while simultaneously buffing our spenders to compensate for the damage lost on Blade of Justice casts.
This is not to say I am not having fun with ret’s current iteration, because I am genuinely having a blast. But as we acquire more gear and more secondary stats, I worry it will become a bit too overwhelming.
Is not reductive. Ive been the one always saying this , that too much holy power has broken the flow of the spec and turned it into an aberration where no button feels good to press.
Had my fair share of responses here and no, these ret “mains” love their spammy gameplay. And the devs too.
If the devs thought ret is too spammy (it is) they would have done the prot warr treatment and cut down on hp generation, proc resets and rage economy.
Each time you bring it up, pretty much everyone agrees.
It takes the form of a different statement however.
Usually “Spender don’t do meaningful damage”.
Which they don’t, relatively speaking, compared to what it used to be.
And they don’t because of HP, ultimately.
Double HP on judgment, Divine Toll, CSAA…
Personally, it would need to come in conjunction with CSAA removal which is also a big HP generator.
We do have a nice flow right now in that it doesn’t feel constricted while simultaneously always having something to press.
Templar Strike doesn’t get the space to truly breath and that’s because of CSAA.
AoW is also not nearly as problematic in AoE without the interaction of CSAA and Blessed Champion.
If we could keep a similar flow but replacing some of the GCD spend for Spenders on builders and have more meaningful spender, that would work.
Your take isn’t as nearly as divisive you think it is.
My fingers don’t love the spammy gameplay. I’m also very worried about how bad Blizzard would reduce the spam. They could increase the CD on generators. Remove HP from some generators. Remove double HP from generators. Remove TSAA and a mix of these options could potentially lead to some very bad feeling gameplay.
I’d rather them increase HP to 10 and increase the cost to 5 and overall damage of finishers by a large magnitude but this also introduces a lot of downtime.
I got some time off soon and I’d like to hit 1800 for my elite set asap but I’m apprehensive due to all the negativity.
My issue with current ret is not only that its spammy, but that no button feels good to press.
As op said, it stopped being a game of “damn I need to get my hp to get my spender off”, it became “damn I have to avoid overcapping and just spam spam spam spam”.
And what do you knoe, blizzard doubled down on spammy gameplay with divine hammer and its interaction with spenders/empyrean hammer
I could post all day what I consider is wrong with the spec, but it would be for nothing.
Make it cost 7. So if you use it at 10, you have 3 left. With TSAA you’ll hit 4 passively and 1 GCD for another finisher. I think this flows nicely.
Numbers are always the hardest things to work with. I’m bad at math.
FV avg is around 1.1 million in my logs and HoL is 3.06 million and is about 2.75x-ish stronger. 30% buff to both increases it to 1.4m FV and 4m HoL.
I think 30% would be a good baseline buff if the cost is increased. There’s also a whole 'nother conversation about how much damage should be coming from generators vs spenders vs misc. A rough breakdown of mine is 30% spenders and 70% generators/misc
If we’re talking strictly PvP I’d really just want spenders to really hurt someone. I don’t think I should 2-shot anyone but if I line up a HoL and multiple FV’s with wings rolling people should be scared.
Honestly when playing ret I’m constantly “reacting” to the free final verdict proc or extra holy power proc that I now am pressured to drop everything and spend. It is not a nice surprise like execute procs on warriors. It’s more like defusing a surprise land mine that constantly happens during my rotation. I mean my solution now is to not play my ret and let rets deal with the suck.
If the free holy power spender procs from Divine Purpose are interrupting your gameplay (which has happened to me and feels awkward), you can elect to take Sacred Strength instead.
We don’t need to reinvent the wheel. Adding more source cap and spender cost won’t help
The solution is simple. Judgement generates 1 hopo, aow proc kinda gets reduced, dr replaced by rc, wake generates 5 hopo instead of 3, fv buffed by 100% ds buffed by 30%, generators nerfed slightly, es uses hopo and does direct damage like it used to do.
I mean, it’s nice when Divine Purpose and Hammer of Light line up, but it’s not necessary. You already generate 3HP from Wake of Ashes, and you can either prep a Blade of Justice/Judgement or follow up with either one to reach 5HP pretty easily.
I offer Sacred Strength as an alternative because it allows you to be more deterministic in how your rotation flows together. It certainly isn’t the numerically superior choice, but if you find yourself held back by Divine Purpose procs, then it doesn’t matter what the sims say is better; you’ll perform best when you’re comfortable.
thats also a option, but its not like es was bad. there was a time it was good and fr made it better cause it was a spender. making es benefit from things effecting spenders would go a long way to making it feel better
that or ya know. delete it and buff fr for true burst cd spec sequence
I’ve been running arena skirm with one of the top rated ret on my DK, my claw does more than his final verdict. Honestly ret just need baseline buff across.