Scarlet Crusade, deny it as much as you want, the Scarlet Crusade were Alliance for a time. Let us see, Shaw murdering surrendering Orc Forces, the Alliance slaughtering the Undead (including Ambassadors who tried to negotiate a peace with the Alliance), Taurajo, Concentration Camps, Genns multiple attempts to opt for Genocide (And who is now leading the Alliance), Jaina (who in tides of war spoke of wanting to murder actual orphans.) and nearly succeeded in doing so. To name a few from the top of my head. I am sure if I actually looked I would find more.
What was solved? The Heroes killed the Dreadlord and Shaw took his place again and did nothing to point out that everything that happened in the Broken Shore assault was his fault.
In hindsight, I think all the orc children should have been sent to Nagrand or something, with maybe Garona acting as a translator to the orcs there. Of course, the Alliance did not know that much about Draenor at the time, I think.
Yep, and the Shadow Council was evil. So is the Scarlet Crusade, only one of these organizations still exist.
Yes, Rogers, my bad, one genocidal maniac is just as bad as the next. And what happened to Victory or Death? I use that argument against those who support Saurfang and his âOrcish Honorâ Horde. The Orcs who surrendered might be cowards. But the Alliance slaughtered them even though they were surrendering.
I donât know about you, but I would assume a Ambassador knows to somehow make himself look like not a threat (No weapons, usually some sort of sign, like a white flag or something), but yeah, that is head canon at this point and I defer to this, you are right, the Alliance could not have known. So I will use instead the culling of Dalaran.
Doesnât matter, Taurajo still happened.
Everybody? Even the children they put in those camps? I am sure Thrall as a baby has done nothing, and was still treated like a slave.
Two wrongs donât make a right. Either genocide is always bad, or it is never bad. I say, yeah, he was justified. But then neither am I holding the Orcs accountable for the rampage they caused, seeing how the fel-haze that was over them was caused by the Draenei and the one who brought them to Azeroth was a human mage.
Nope, she didnât cause no one could make a point to defend the Night Elves, who would want to? (Joke).
In seriousness though, there is a difference between several attempted genocides on a defenceless people AFTER you won the war, to the destruction of a military target, which entailed breaking some eggs (civilians). The Night Elves had 3-4 weeks to evacuate their people, the attacks that the Alliance caused, from Dazarâalor to the attempted genocide of the Orcs, always came as a surprise or against those who could no longer defend themselves, maximizing civilian losses.
So you agree with slaughtering surrendering forces that just want to come ashore so they donât drown? Good to see where you stand.
Jaina neutral? Is that false statement still going on? Theramore was NOT neutral, it was used as a Alliance staging ground for the War in the Barrens BEFORE Garrosh threw a bomb at it.
It needs to be talked about because you guys keep bending over backwards even lieing to defend it. Cause he only attacked AFTER the soldiers were gone, civilians were slaughtered and those that wanted to run were herded into Quillboar territory where they were slaughtered as well, afterwards the Alliance pillaged the village and then the commander had it burned down for good measure.
In the book, Rise of the Horde it is said that the Orcs and the Draenei had a peaceful relationship of ignoring each other. Thusly, no. The nudging that happened was that the Spirits were starting to remain silent, and Kilâjaeden blamed it on the Draenei and called for Nerâzhul to murder them.
Warlords tells us what would have happened if a genocidal maniac had spurred on the Orcs against the Draenei, again.
Fair point.
Yep, not hypocrisy, cause there is a difference. They were in a neutral city and the elves had no choice in the matter for one, and for the other: HER CITY WAS NOT NEUTRAL.
Sorry buddy, the time skips donât work that way, the time-gating is canon, since the quests always leave off on something slowing the Horde down. Be it the wall of wisps, the defence at the river, etc.
I am not sure how often I gotta say this, Theramore was a legitimate military target with next to no civilians in it when Garrosh bombed it, since he gave her fair warning using Baines obvious traitor mentality to warn her so it would be almost only soldiers in Theramore. It is quite concerning when the psychopathic Maniac is the better person then the Alliance Hero of BfA.
oh boy, are we playing a game of âsnip apart peoplesâ posts into a bunch of unnecessary chunks instead of replying to the whole thing in a coherent mannerâ?
Just hit the Reply button and say what you gotta say. If your points are coherent, it will be understood what youâre replying to.
Gonna address this though, as itâs not even a matter of conjecture and hearsay. This is factually incorrect.
In Rise of the Horde, the attacks on the draenei took place before the orcs drank of Mannorothâs blood, i.e. before the fel-haze. There was no demon blood to cloud their judgment, just poor judgment and natural bloodlust.
True, but the demons still played a factor, seeing how they only attacked after Kiâjaeden (Disguised) told Nerâzhul that the Draenei are to blame for all the evil stuff that has been going on lately.
I wouldnât exactly call: Claiming that the Draenei are causing your loss to your ancestors. As a âtiny pushâ. Considering their entire belief is centered around it. And really? You want to use the Draenor Draenei as a excuse? Because from what I see, the Orcs were right to not like them, seeing how they turned into the Spanish Inquisition the moment we left and are quite literallly responsible for the destruction of Draenor.
Here is the thing, I would not mind betraying the Warchief, yes, I like Sylvanas, but she was never meant to be a leader like this, she was always the shady one and now she is being dragged on a pedestal and is constantly being beaten by Blizzâs infamous villain bat, only this time, it isnât working. I choose Sylvanas out of spite and because I do support some of her decision, not all, but they are definetly better then whatever Saurfang and Baine are trying to sell.
You donât have to continue the War Campaign past the Tides of Vengeance achieve. Basically once you get the quest to kill Jaina in BoD youâre free to stop the WC and you wonât have to do the dumb Baine/Jaina quest.
Yes, almost directly after getting a quest in the WC to kill Jaina⊠you get another to betray your faction to help her out. Totes makes sense.
The funniest part about all this is how Baine asks you to kill the Forsaken on the ship to help him get Derek to Jaina. Yes, some do surrender but some ultimately die thanks to Baine. And then when Sylvanas kills Zelling for betraying her and lying to her face, Baine goes !! Itâs hilarious.
Hope he joins his father soon. He makes the Horde look weak. Honour means loyalty as well and Baine lacks it.
I think I did the war campaign up to unlocking the dark shore warfronts for those sweet 400 ilvl quests. I have 3-4 quests telling me to talk to Sylvanas and Nathanos and I just canât be bothered to participate in âtotally not MoP 2.0â civil war story beats for a second time. I havenât even done the Saurfang stuff yet because even though I want the toy for choosing to help Saurfang, I donât actually want to help a traitor.
All of this happened AFTER Garrosh convinced them, and when you get a future Orc, your son, telling you that kind of stuff and bringing all kinds of tech, you will automatically assume that he knows better. All in all, the story-line was meant to show Grommash learn (in the Raid tier that never happened) that his son had been wrong and that Draenor should stand united. A peace was made between the Orcs and Draenei when we left Draenor, it was the Draenei who turned spanish inquisition on the Orcs out of nowhere.
That being said, moving to your other points:
Yes, they might rebel, same reason why Jaina decided to drown the entirety of Orgrimmar, babies included. You support Jaina yet you condemn Sylvanas, and you call me a tumor.
And yes, surrendering forces, even the Night Elf says they were surrendering and is shocked at the brutality of the Alliance at slaughtering those who just didnât want to drown. I know you like to add head-canon to your arguments to justify it. But you cannot confirm that those Orcs would have thought, even the Night Elf saw that those Orcs were surrendering.
You point out the fact that the Sunreavers werenât neutral or whatever, here is the difference: Jaina out of her own free will decided to commit genocide and attempted it multiple times. The Blood Elves were forced by Garrosh and had no choice.
And I brought up that unlike the Burning of Teldrassil, the drowning of Orgrimmar was a surprise attack and left the Horde with no chance to evacuate their civilians. Unlike the Burning of Teldrassil where the Alliance had 3-4 weeks (CANON) to evacuate. Always the Alliance is given a chance to evacuate: Theramore and Teldrassil. Again, quite concerning when the âHeroesâ of BfA have no qualms with murdering civilians by not allowing them to escape and the Horde lets them evacuate.
And what did he do to the civilians they fled? Let me answer: Nothing, because they fled by ship and were not touched by Garrosh. Were civilians imprisoned and cruelly treated? Yes, guess what: Same happened in Taurajo, the thing you so desperately want to sweep under the rug.
Again, leaving a door open into a hungry lions den is not a courtesy. Pillaging and burning the city after slaughtering civilians who were trying to protect their livelihood is NOT a courtesy.
They are living atop a flammable tree with enemies at their doorstep, even IF they couldnât think that a burning would happen, how stupid do you need to be to say: Oh yes! I will leave my civilians here in a futurely occupied Teldrassil. BRILLIANT IDEA! I am sure they will be treated fairly! After all the stuff we did to them, after the countless times we pocked and prodded them, I am sure they will be lenient to my citizens!
What kind of reasoning is that? The moment they saw those Horde War Machines they should have evacuated, you know⊠like Sylvanas did. Again, it seems that Sylvanas cares more for her people then Tyrande does, since she does not count on the non-existant mercy of the Alliance and wants to make sure they are evacuated to safety.
Actually no, the fact is that the Draenei were killing the planet, considering that the Magâhar were refugees and could have done little to cause the destruction of the planet as the Draenei are doing with their Naaru worship. Sorry buddy. And yes, I get to use that as a excuse considering that a dude came from the future, family, and told his father lies and deceit. If we get to say that the Alliance gets to ignore the attrocities they did under Balnazzar, Neltharion, Onyxia and their son. Then the Horde cannot be held accountable, not even the Iron Horde, for being manipulated by a trusted family member who had just protected them from being enslaved to demon blood.
But you do, I donât even need to read the rest of the statement. This is all I need to know. She just got done orchestrating the murder of a king, defiling holy temples and murdering priests and pillaging their city and murdering civilians and priests. I donât think she has any soap box to stand on as much as you want it to be, she is still the evil, genocide loving Jaina.
No, it is head-canon, even the Night Elf knew they were just trying to surrender, so trying to claim that the soldiers didnât know that these Orcs were just trying not to drown is false. And I shrug off Teldrassil, considering that the Elves had long enough to evacuate.
For the Sunreavers, sounds like something Garithos did, forcing the elves to either commit a horrible act or die, and then imprisoning them for execution or just outright executing them for choosing the ânot dieâ option.
As for the next, Jaina wanted to do it and still does, I donât care what pretty face she puts on for Anduin, she was with Genn as he and the Dark Iron slaughtered civilians and when Gelbin released a uncontrollable wild Kaijuu into Dazarâalor, not once did she speak up and be like: Ummm⊠we are inside⊠perhaps we should allow them to evacuate their civilians first. NOPE!
As for the Northwatch troops, of course they didnât bother with those civilians, why should they? The wild animals of the land would do it for them. Would you run into a burning building to stab someone? No, you let the fire do it. Again, the blood is still on their hands for attacking a civilian village and making those who donât want to fight run into enemy territory or stay behind and be slaughtered, pillaged and burned.
And yeah, I say poked and prodded, we want to know how the relationship with the Orcs started? Orcs needed lumber, saw a forest and started chopping it down. Cenarius sensed the lingering fel in them and went immediately for genocide, the Orcs defended themselves from the vicious attacks. Not knowing why, not knowing that they had entered elven lands cause you know, no one told them. And even the War of Thorns, considering that they sent soldiers to Silithus to fight the Horde, so Sylvanas attacked Darkshore. But yes, keep trying to paint the Night Elves as innocent little pumpkins.
And if you do not evacuate military outposts viable for attack in war time, you only have yourself to blame if they die when the enemy comes to destroy said military outpost.
![:open_mouth:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/open_mouth.png?v=6" ":open_mouth:")
!! Itâs hilarious.