So why am I being forced to turncoat

[Droité-tanaris (Droité)]

@Belandas-kirin-tor

@Droité-tanaris

Yup, I bring this up in nearly every thread on this topic lol! In fact “A Good War” outright states that she has personal “true objectives” with this conflict; motives that she believed would have likely turned Saurfang against her eventually; goals that she believed entities like Elune would try to interfere with.

Some people say that Sylvanas is apparently far stronger than she used to be because she is being “empowered” by unknown entities. But whom might they be exactly? Bwonsamdi disapproves of her, so it is unlikely he or his master are helping Sylvanas, and even the Lich King seems to be wary of her. And those three are the cosmic powers of Death.

Outside of the fact that we know Sylvie was not responsible for making herself Warchief (someone did it without her knowing, on her behalf) … Helya is a likely bet, we still don’t know the specifics of their deal yet. Beyond that … while I don’t know if Sylvie herself is aware of this (she may be merely getting played) … she has quite a few connections to Yogg-Saron.

Sylvie crucified herself on Yogg-Saron’s blood and was immediately sent to a horrific afterlife that she would have made any deal to escape (and conveniently her Val’kyr were there to give her a REALLY GOOD deal). Heyla also has links to Yogg, through Loken (who according to Xal, did a wonderful job “turning her”). Finally, Sylvie has been recently uttering really stupid things like “Hope is a Disease, and I will cut it out” and claiming she can “Kill Hope” … and Yogg’s (the self proclaimed “God of Death”) official title is “Hope’s End”. Man … that’s quite a coincidence don’t you think?

Legion made it a point to let us know that he’s active in Uldaur again (meaning he may not be as dead as we assumed) … so if its an Old God, my money’s on the big mouth; rather than the C’thulu Corrupter.

[Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord (Echeyneahok)]

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

The fact that the Alliance was receiving false info from a Dreadlord, in the Rogue scenario we see the real Shaw scout out the broken shore only to reach the verdict that a attack would be suicide. Cue Dreadlord abducts Shaw and takes his place and says that attacking the Broken Shore is a good idea.

How is that exactly the alliance or the Horde’s fault? I mean Dreadlords thing is manipulation of enemy forces to their own ends. It is what they do. It’s like blaming the victim of a pick pocket when they didn’t even know they were dealing with a professional thief.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

Yeah, Tauren are the only ones who have no real beef with the Alliance (hehe), except for the whole Taurajo thing.

I’d argue outside of the player base and the rebel tauren they don’t have any issue with it. Mind you the alliance did give the civilians an escape route. They did not wantonly slaughter them. Though neither did they help them escape the quillboar that seemed to be laying in wait. “I’m not going to kill you, but neither am I going to save you.”

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

Is it? Is it really so past the Alliance to not want any witnesses to their dirty deeds?

What dirty deeds is this now? I’m sorry I really only play Tauren and Dwarves. Never rolled a Goblin. I thought their current ruler was the one trying to have them killed only for the Horde to intervein and then promote him to racial leader anyway. The writing team needed something to make the Goblins and even the Nightborne side with the Horde. Even though with the later the alliance helped just as much to liberate their city.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

And Tyrande represented the Alliance, much like the Blood Elves represented the Horde. And Tyrande was a shoddy diplomat, willing to use civilians as decoys so she might study the combat forms of the enemy.

You are talking about a single individual whom just so happens to be a racial leader over an entire race. Tyrande may be a representative of the Alliance but she does not represent the alliance as a whole. That’s like saying Sylvanas and her views represent the Horde. No she simply is in charge of it at the moment. Saurfang and Zappyboi represent the True Horde.

I have to agree with you though. She was a poor Diplomat. Dropped the ball hard on that one allowing personal bias to get in the way.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

I would say the Mag’har joined because A.) The Horde offered to cleanse alternate Draenor from the Holy Inquisition. And because the Lightforged, a faction so reminiscent of the Lightforged on Draenor, are a part of the Alliance. Beings they see as pure evil.

Ask yourself this as a Maghar player. Would there be any reason short of Genocide from the Horde to make you turn against your own kind and join the alliance? It doesn’t matter that the Horde were the ones to offer aid first or even at all. Orcs run with Orcs. This is equally true of the Lightforged. They were predestined to join with the Alliance. Between Tiralyon being formally Alliance and against the horde and Draenei already being apart of the alliance. They were not likely going to fight for the Horde against their cousins.

I’m not sure if they see the alliance or even the Lightforged as pure evil as I have not done the unlock scenario for them as you have. So I’ll have to take your word for it.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

Cause Talanji is smarter, the only reason I would see for her turning on the Horde is when the Horde starts turning into Alliance boot-lickers as Baine and Saurfang hope.

She wont live forever. Also there could be dissention in the ranks. If they can go on a war campaign against the Alliance, then why can’t they do the same for the Horde? They already did in the past. Multiple times in fact. The only real reason they wont unless it is a splinter faction is much like how the Forsaken wont abandon the Horde as a whole. Because they are a playable race. It would alienate those whom currently play these races.

I’d imagine She would not be to pleased with a simple truce with the alliance after the death of her father. We’d have Genn 2.0 instead of Garrosh 2.0. She and several Zandalar will go on a personal vendetta with the alliance. I don’t really see this war ending on a peaceful note. More likely a stalemate will occur with both sides being exhausted. That or the Old God threat pushes them to a mutual seize fire.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

Didn’t do the WQ, assuming that it is Jani, the loa of mischief and petty thieves. Other then that, you would need to read the quest text to see why we do that. I mean… Rastakhan sent us in before to clean up rebels among the Farraki and
Amani trolls. So… it might be something like that? Not sure.

Honestly me either. It just seems strange we are tasked with damaging religious relics and then killing the priest whom gets mad within the Temple.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

The original Orcish Horde has about as much as common with the Modern Horde as the Alliance of Lordaeron does with the current Alliance. They are not the same thing anymore.

My point still stands though. Survival was the name of the game even back then. When they sailed across the ocean it was to establish a new home. To rebuild and survive. Thrall helped them escape their internment and become a nation founding Durotar and Thunder Bluff as well as Orgrimmar.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

Actually no, the reason the Trolls joined the Horde was because the Horde aided the previous troll Jin of the Darkspear, who were having trouble with a Murloc invasion, led by a Naga. Sen’jin was killed but thanks to the Horde, the Darkspear reclaimed the Echo Isles and Vol’jin then swore loyalty to the Horde for their aid.

I knew there was something with the echo isles but was not sure if that was the reason or not. Trolls didn’t even have their own starting zone until cata I believe.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

eah, he only objected when we ‘left’ Saurfang to die. (who chose to stay behind on his own volition mind you), and Sylvanas told her, that he could either die with Saurfang if he so wanted or take care of the living. As in evacuate them and heal them. Another zinger by Sylvanas if you ask me.

No that is the only one we the player are made aware of. I am sure he objected to the Blight if given the chance even if he did not get to say anything. It is after all a direct violation of the Earth Mother. Something Baine and most Tauren in general care about.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

Also, I still think he is a Sleeper Agent, why else is Derek on a ship to Tiraguard Sound? Why else does Nathanos tell you to do nothing and just act as a witness to Baine’s treason? It is because Derek is already brainwashed, he just doesn’t know it. And Nathanos decided, how better then to make it more inconspicuous by having the Alliance fanboy personally deliver the weapon?

Because Baine whom is good friends with Saurfang is an actual threat to Sylvanas’ rule. I don’t remember if it was in the Novels or somewhere in game but Sylvanas has had a run in with both of them. In Saurfang’s case it was a simple look he gave her that told the banshee that he would end her if she stepped out of line. Something she may or may not have done. For Baine it was a single incident where he grabbed her arm. The gentle Tauren hides a powerful beast that could crush Sylvanas with little effort.

So removing both of them by any means necessary would insure these two cannot conspire against her any more than they may already have. She may not show it but our Warchief fears loosing her power and that this Orc-Tauren pairing could be what does it.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

You are right, it is. Baine justified the murder of innocent civilians by claiming it was a legitimate military target and banished anyone who called him out for it. And people like that have the cahones to say that Sylvanas is a evil dictator.

Well one does not excuse the other. Sylvanas is not any less of an evil dictator just because Baine put his hoof down on a matter the general populous did not like. He was not justifying the murder of civilians, he was justifying the attack on the camp. He did not want others endangering themselves or others by taking revenge.

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

Here is the thing, Genn has no right to be angry, the peace was made, and it was years since then, there was a much bigger threat that needed to be dealt with. And Genn got orders from his High King, his superior, not to engage unless absolutely necessary. A order he disobeyed.

Clearly peace was not made and in Genn’s case wont be unless the Forsaken are wiped clean from the face of Azeroth. The bigger threat not withstanding. Genn has personal vendetta against Sylvanas and her Forsaken. It is safe to say that Genn whom is a king in his own right is equally not as subservient the Alliance as Talanji is to the Horde?

I also want to mention that Baine likely would not an has not sold out his people to the alliance. I know a lot of people may think so because of Taurajo but it wasn’t about saving alliance lives he made that declaration. It was about preventing escalation and in turn saving Tauren lives. It is much the same reason he did not challenge Garrosh after his father’s murder.

@Murdra-wildhammer

With over a 150 responses, has anyone consider the possibility that Sylvanas is simply using the players who are loyal to her as tools for her own agenda? And will turn on them the moment they’re usefulness has been spent?

Oh I am sure everyone has to be honest. I think she even says as much in game.

[Cantaloupe-wyrmrest-accord (Cantaloupe)]

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

The trolls when the Alliance kicked them off their Island. Goblins when the Alliance tried to genocide them after they just got done escaping their sinking island. Orcs and the internment camps (aka concentration camps), Tauren and Taurajo, Forsaken and the fact that the Alliance slaughtered every ambassador that they sent to them.

Trolls: That was the Naga.
Goblins: Pretty much the only completely justified one, though goblins themselves don’t seem to care about past discrepancies so long as they’re getting paid to build things that go boom.
Orcs: Literally just got done attempting actual genocide on humans, dwarves, and elves, and internment camps are not “aka concentration camps”.

(If you need examples, look at the difference between Japanese Americans in the USA and Jewish Germans in Germany in WW2.)

Tauren: A hunting camp got its tents burned and people who fought soldiers got killed while civilians got set free. The only real reason Tauren are still a part of this is their blood debt to the orcs (which honestly should be repaid by now).
Forsaken: It’s never mentioned anywhere that the Forsaken ambassadors sent to Stormwind ever even made it that far south. There’s no indication of who or what killed them.

Given how Sylvanas acts when the undead start going over to the Alliance in Arathi, it’s not at all far-fetched to assume she sent a token ambassadorial party south and then had them all killed so she could keep her “flock” more firmly under her thumb.

[Goshom-wyrmrest-accord]

Trolls: Got almost genocided by the Alliance twice (Darkspear and now Zandalari), Just because it was not the reason that the trolls mainly joined the Horde, does not make it a crime against them.

Goblins: One of many justified and the reason why they joined the Horde.

Orcs: Even if they are more like Japanes Prisoner camps, those were still not a mercy. Soldiers were tortured in those.Wait no, I think those were the Viatnamese ones. Well then, I guess they weren’t like Japanese ones, unless the soldiers were tortured, beaten and starved. Including children who had nothing to do with that war.

Tauren: A village, which might appear small, but then the real size of these places are never accurately displayed in game, what, you think Stormwind, if it were reality, would be so small that you could run from one end to the other in a minute? Taurajo is bigger then you like to admit, and was filled with civilians which were slaughtered, those who were allowed to run were sent into Quillboar territory, where they were slaughtered.

Forsaken: Wow… that is some serious reaching you are doing there.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

How is that exactly the alliance or the Horde’s fault?

It wasn’t, but neither was it the fault of the Horde, which the Alliance still blames the Horde for, for ‘letting Varian die’. If they can bring that argument, then I can bring up that the Alliance caused the death of Vol’jin. If you aren’t one of those people, then this argument does not concern you.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

Mind you the alliance did give the civilians an escape route. They did not wantonly slaughter them.

Herding a bunch of people down a empty hatch that puts them into a cage with a hungry tiger is still murder.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

What dirty deeds is this now?

They were attacking a Horde ship and capturing Thrall. The Alliance did not like that a bunch of neutral Goblins saw this and decided to blow them apart.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

You are talking about a single individual whom just so happens to be a racial leader over an entire race.

And also a diplomat. The purpose of a diplomat IS to represent those that elected her to do the job. And she did not represent the Alliance in any good light. So we saw Tyrande willing to slaughter innocent civilians. Tell me, why should anyone of the Horde feel bad for the same happening to her?

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

Ask yourself this as a Maghar player. Would there be any reason short of Genocide from the Horde to make you turn against your own kind and join the alliance?

If those other Orcs proved to be fel-corrupted monsters and if the Alliance did not have Lightforged, that would be a good way to have the Mag’har join the Alliance.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

I’m not sure if they see the alliance or even the Lightforged as pure evil as I have not done the unlock scenario for them as you have. So I’ll have to take your word for it.

They forcefully convert their captives, they are destroying the planet and are blaming it on the Orcs. And will not stop until they have made sure to either kill every free Orc or have them all undergo the special Naaru manipulation (ala Illidan style), unless you found the Spanish Inquisition as good, you will not find the Light zealots that Yrel became any better.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

Because they are a playable race. It would alienate those whom currently play these races.

And that is why they will never truly seperate from the Horde.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

We’d have Genn 2.0 instead of Garrosh 2.0

No, the difference is that Genn serves the High King, usually when you go against a High Kings wishes he can have you kicked out of the Alliance, but Anduin lacks the cahones to do that. Talanji does not serve the Warchief, she made that abundantly clear when she spoke to Sylvanas.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

Survival was the name of the game even back then.

Yes, and now to survive, the Alliance must be dismantled, because they will never stop until the Horde is dead. Shaw, Roger, Genn, Tyrande and Jaina. The only one of the Alliance who wants peace is Velen (and he is weirdly quiet) and Anduin (whose words mean nothing until he grows a pair and puts his foot down).

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

Trolls didn’t even have their own starting zone until cata I believe.

Trolls received the Echo Isles back in the WC games. But ever since then, the Darkspear lost their Islands multiple times. Once to that one troll, Vol’jins mortal enemy, which the Horde aided with. And another when the humans kicked them off of it and the Horde once more aided in its reclaiming.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

Because Baine whom is good friends with Saurfang is an actual threat to Sylvanas’ rule. I don’t remember if it was in the Novels or somewhere in game but Sylvanas has had a run in with both of them. In Saurfang’s case it was a simple look he gave her that told the banshee that he would end her if she stepped out of line. Something she may or may not have done. For Baine it was a single incident where he grabbed her arm. The gentle Tauren hides a powerful beast that could crush Sylvanas with little effort.

Which makes the fact that Saurfang chose to run away like a pansy instead of outright challenging her like a true Orc, as he said he would, even more dishonorable and unfit to speak of honor. He preaches but is incapable of upholding it. Hypocrisy at its finest. And until Baine does something that uniquely benefits the Horde, not his Alliance overlords, I will keep calling him a Alliance pet.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

Sylvanas is not any less of an evil dictator just because Baine put his hoof down on a matter the general populous did not like.

Wrong, Sylvanas never kicked anyone out because they disagreed with her methods. She either ignores them or just tells them to shut up. Baine literally BANISHED anyone who called him out. Kinda weird that Sylvanas is less the evil dictator that Baine is. But that is more of that sweet hypocrisy.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

Clearly peace was not made and in Genn’s case wont be unless the Forsaken are wiped clean from the face of Azeroth.

He is a part of the Alliance, and when the High King says: We are at peace. He either accepts it and moves on, or does as he did back in the days of the Alliance of Lordaeron and throws a tantrum and leaves the Alliance because he did not get his wish of genocide.

@Echeyneahok-wyrmrest-accord

I also want to mention that Baine likely would not an has not sold out his people to the alliance.

Literally risked the safety of his own people, twice, to protect the Alliance. And has once more excused the slaughter of innocent civilians, calling the hunter camp a military outpost, spitting on the graves of the innocents that the Alliance murdered and banishing all who were outraged over this choice, just so he could claim that the Alliance did nothing to invoke his anger and hide behind his wall, like a cheap Gilnean knock-off.

[Escarlett-wyrmrest-accord (Escarlett)]

Waiting for the enemy SHE knew would come and when SHE saw the enemy SHE did not run and waited for reinforcements. SHE told her men to open fire.

Victory or death is their battle cry but on that day Sky Admiral Rogers denied the Horde their Victory and given the Horde death instead.

[Cladriah-moon-guard (Cladriah)]

Uh, have you forgotten that the imprisoned orcs attempted genocide?

Edit: I think this is a troll.

[Fritaya-azshara (Fritaya)]

Have the Stonespire Tauren been mentioned yet or is that not relevant, I kind of tuned out partway through

[Goshom-wyrmrest-accord]

Yes, I am sure the children that were imprisoned also attempted genocide.

[Cailias-wyrmrest-accord (Cailias)]

@Murdra-wildhammer

With over a 150 responses, has anyone consider the possibility that Sylvanas is simply using the players who are loyal to her as tools for her own agenda? And will turn on them the moment they’re usefulness has been spent?

Why should I care when I get to kill Alliance

[Goshom-wyrmrest-accord]

Hate to say it, but I agree with the obviously evil undead. Sylvanas has yet to do anything to actually turn on the Horde (No, Lordaeron doesn’t count, unless sending countless soldiers to their death in Nazmir also counts as turning on your people), so until she actually turns on the Horde, I will prefer her over anyone who would let the Alliance get off scott-free once again for all their crimes.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

What would you have done with them?

[Goshom-wyrmrest-accord]

What do you mean? What would I have done with who?

[Hahahahahaha-grizzly-hills (Hahahahahaha)]

@Goshom-wyrmrest-accord

Yes, I am sure the children that were imprisoned also attempted genocide.

Jaina Proudmoore, World Hero of BFA, on why she wants to murder every last child in the Orgrimmar orphanage:

“The orphans there will grow up to be Horde, they are being taught to hate and plot against us!” - actual quote from Tides of War

[Goshom-wyrmrest-accord]

Thank you. XD The Alliance hero, ladies and gentlemen! Jaina Proudmoore, the ice-queen who LITERALLY tried to kill babies. Now, let us wait for the Alliance fanboys and Baine/Saurfang fanboys to make some sort of excuse.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

The children? You’re upset that they were imprisoned. What you have done with the children?

[Goshom-wyrmrest-accord]

Orphanages? Anything is better then sticking children, who had nothing to do with the slaughter (which the Draenei are to blame for by the by, they are the ones that brought the Legion to Draenor), into concentration camps to starve, be beaten and endure cruelty after cruelty of the Alliance. As Jaina Proudmoore said in Tides of War:

@Hahahahahaha-grizzly-hills

“The orphans there will grow up to be Horde, they are being taught to hate and plot against us!”

Only that the Alliance did a bang-up job themselves to teach those children to hate them.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

Then you’d be denying children from their parents, and as far as I know, only a few camps were abusive.

[Goshom-wyrmrest-accord]

How about you read the entirety of that argument before posting? Kay? Thank you.

@Arlifrex-moon-guard

Then you’d be denying children from their parents, and as far as I know, only a few camps were abusive.

Yes, you would be denying the children their parents, but quite honestly, how good of a argument is that actually? Seeing how we like to use real world examples for this fantasy one. How much sense would it make to imprison a child with its parents just so they aren’t seperated?

[Goshom-wyrmrest-accord]

Then you should have seen that I basically admitted that yes, the Horde has suffered from it as well, and that it was just another attempt to show that the Alliance is not better then the Horde, that they are similar.

[Goshom-wyrmrest-accord]

Keep telling yourself that, Both times the demons interfered (and dragons for the Alliance) it always ended in murder, genocide and other attrocities.