So What's the Status of Troll Guilds?

Moon Guard
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10/28/2018 10:43 PMPosted by Zulrajai
Everyone's trying to climb the steps to the Great Seal in Zuldazar, but recently the Darkspears were more or less given a place of honor while the other tribes (the ones that listened to Zul and agreed to his campaign) are slapped in the mouth.


The Zandalari could afford to slap other tribes in the mouth. Those tribes are broken, scattered to the winds, or relegated to living in segregated districts on the outskirts of the city or on the docks.

The Zandalari could not afford to slap the Darkspear in the mouth. The Darkspear arrived along with the only forces suitable to repel dangerous political threats that the Zandalari themselves let fester. Treating the Darkspear like Darkspear, while likely preferable to the larger part of Zandalari society, is not tactically sound.

10/28/2018 10:43 PMPosted by Zulrajai
Rokhan doesn't seem to have misgivings with helping Talanji through all of it (rescuing Zul on the other hand...), but then she's a far more active and cognizant presence than her inept father, and has demonstrated a ready openness to work with others. It's likely under her rule and guidance that some past discrepancies and shortcomings are rectified.


It is unfortunate that we do not see any unease with Rokhan, but I don't expect Blizzard to come up with a real personality for him until maybe the next expansion. After all, he has witnessed his tribe get bullied out of their ancestral land by the Gurubashi with no aid from the clout-wielding Zandalari. He also witnessed his tribe being pursued and killed all the way to Durotar by Kul Tirans while the Zandalari sat on one of the most powerful navies on the planet. He also witnessed the unleashing of Zul upon the world which almost brought about the second coming of the Thunder King and Hakkar, and then ALSO watched Zul retain his position alongside Rastakhan with no apparent repercussion.

While Talanji is better, it is only because she is the only Zandalari who fits with the philosophy of the Horde. It is unlikely that she will seek the same appeasement and subjugation that her father (and every other Zandalari leader) sought from "lesser trolls" and I do hope that many Zandalari RPers make content around the cultural revolution that ought to happen after the events of 8.1.

The Horde is able to barely function because there is an acknowledgement than no one in the Horde is lesser than another because of their racial background or heritage. Every time that has become an issue (Garrosh with Orcs, Sylvanas with the Undead), there is massive destabilization and identity crisis. To introduce a whole race that is basically just a bunch of racist aristocrats is troubling unless they are forced to align with the perspectives of the Horde (or just remain a truly "allied race" and never join the Horde outside of military engagement).

10/28/2018 10:43 PMPosted by Zulrajai
Even then, the superiority stems less from good breeding and more from "because we're more religious and my gods said so, now look at these dinosaurs and the size of this temple."


And also the breeding. After all, the Zandalari didn't specifically use Amani, Gurubashi, and Drakkari Trolls as cannon fodder in their invasion of Pandaria because their coffers were filled with more gold.

My main point is that the introduction of the Zandalari with no pushback from any Darkspear (characters or players, take your pick) makes the Darkspear feel like a dead culture. Where are the opposing points of view? Where are the hesitant parties? Where is the challenge to the Troll hierarchy the Zandalari demand, but will ultimately fail within the Horde? Where is the Fandral Staghelm to the Tyrande Whisperwind? Where is the Greymane to the Anduin?

Instead all we have is Yes Ma'am Rokhan.
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The Zandalari could not afford to slap the Darkspear in the mouth. The Darkspear arrived along with the only forces suitable to repel dangerous political threats that the Zandalari themselves let fester. Treating the Darkspear like Darkspear, while likely preferable to the larger part of Zandalari society, is not tactically sound.


No, and again we've gone beyond societal misgivings into the larger realm of politics and survival. There isn't a lot of room being given to internal thoughts, and Zuldazar is still the troll Mecca. The cultural weight of being strongly present in it can't be disregarded, even if the people running it aren't cut for the task right now.

It is unfortunate that we do not see any unease with Rokhan. After all, he has witnessed [Rastakhan being bad at his job.]


Rokhan's a man about his business and always has been. He's military and we continuously see him in a professional context, and I feel that while he and the other Darkspear leaders would shine as a collective council, none of them really have the development yet to be outstanding. Maybe they're all quietly amazing.

I'd like to see them all grow, at least. Sadly that's not in our hands.

As for potential anger, the crowns' track records indicate that the government largely took a laissez-faire policy toward the other tribes when they distanced themselves from Zuldazar.

They helped the Amani during the second war of elven aggression, and took up arms directly with Hakkar's first rise among the Gurubashi. After that, it was all blessings and record-keeping. The first was a clear loss because humans had to go all out just this once master for their elven dealers and the second was a narrow win after putting feet on the ground that wasn't successful the first time.

Their spirit for it all was broken and that they preferred to just do their thing on Zandalar and leave external work to a handful of representatives taking records and shilling out work.

Then again, being angry at the Zandalari implies that they'd even expect help in the first place. Given the degree of past losses and their continued withdrawal from external affairs, Zul's presence and claim to represent the Empire's intentions directly was probably a freak exception to the pattern of less and less involvement, which probably only served to raise Vol'jin's hackles further.
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While Talanji is better, it is only because she is the only Zandalari who fits with the philosophy of the Horde. It is unlikely that she will seek the same appeasement and subjugation that her father (and every other Zandalari leader) sought from "lesser trolls" and I do hope that many Zandalari RPers make content around the cultural revolution that ought to happen after the events of 8.1.


I'm not sure Talanji bought into the idea of lesser trolls, even. Rokhan is in a foreign land and the princess has forward momentum to see that her father's failures, both his own and those committed by the councilors that betrayed him, are rectified. Her plan was rough considering how quickly she's taking action with the Horde hearing her out, but nothing even alludes to her regarding non-trolls as lesser.

Nothing is mentioned about the castes, but overall she does want a cultural shift in her people - times change and the Zandalari have to adapt in order to thrive, she's said as much. We'll have to see how extensive this is, but considering the blood elves and draenei have been static since BC, I'm not holding out hope that the Hall of Castes will be replaced with a well-funded public school system.

We're getting down to the people now. Us. Culturally, Zandalari have probably squandered the potential of their own to the caste system, and beyond this the potential of others to the larger system of Zandalari > The Rest of You.

There will be people that embrace the old system and balk powerlessly at a shift in opinions, and there ought to be people embracing it. The number of vagrants, merchants and craftspeople far outnumber the clergy, and the warriors have something at stake as well considering their lives are on the line daily and, as a result, likely confide more in their faith than the priests that are supposed to lord over them and everyone else.

Collectively, the Zandalari have more to gain by embracing the Horde's initial philosophies. The only people that lose are the ones in power that use their influence to browbeat everyone under them. The city has already seen the strength found in banding together, in the individual races of the Horde and the Horde overall.

The guy in the kitchen takes a jab at us over Vol'jin, and the guards make remarks over the elven tourists who are being jerks anyway. The Zanchuli Priests are snobs but this is established. Beyond that, it seems the locals are adjusting post-campaign arc on the continent.
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10/28/2018 11:56 PMPosted by Yokumba
My main point is that the introduction of the Zandalari with no pushback from any Darkspear (characters or players, take your pick) makes the Darkspear feel like a dead culture. Where are the opposing points of view? Where are the hesitant parties? Where is the challenge to the Troll hierarchy the Zandalari demand, but will ultimately fail within the Horde? Where is the Fandral Staghelm to the Tyrande Whisperwind? Where is the Greymane to the Anduin?


We can include it in our stories and RP but there isn't a lot of room for it in the ongoing narrative we're playing in. Just because the Darkspear, or individual Darkspear NPCs, aren't in open disagreement doesn't render their culture dead.

The place that this internal strife would hold is being taken by the Zandalari accepting the Darkspear, accepting the Horde's aid, in Talanji explicitly telling us that her father's rule is broken and that her people need the Horde as much as the Horde needs them.

Through these collective losses, struggles and narrow victories, the reluctance is getting glossed over by having these horrible situations forced on us and overlooking hostilities to not die. Ideally, once the dust settles, they realize past actions and inaction were bad and they need to do better in the future. The issue is that the dust hasn't settled yet.

So, yeah, it's up to RP to address it. The story won't. And we aren't going to have the spotlight taken from growing reluctance toward Windrunner's actions among the rest of the Horde's leaders.

Maybe we're not even getting pitched the grounds for conflict so much as watching the past catch up to the Zandalari, them realizing it, and wanting something better, with the Darkspear and the Horde showing them the way to that.

Maybe the arc pivots to them finding a new way while trying to preserve the worthwhile elements of what make them distinct, and an ongoing interplay between them and the Darkspear aids in redefining one and further defining the other.

Greymane is Anduin's buddy that he has to tell to chill all the time. They're looking in the same direction from different vantages, and one is more willing to act on violence than the other. The only conflict there is from approach.

Similarly with Whisperwind and Staghelm, they both wanted what was best for their people, except one was a more xenophobic isolationist who was reluctant on a good day to work with others. In the situation of the Zandalari, those collective, defined Staghelms now all either have loot tables or are quest objectives.

The case for the Zandalari and the Darkspear might be more optimistic, despite the struggles that went into getting there. We'll have to see. If they do address it, it's going to be implication and side plot at best because we can't miss the next atrocity under Great Leader and her necrotic fanclub.
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If I would I would like to point out that there is also a good bit of the issue that there is not any efforts to make meaningful reaching out to the community. However, there are projects that aim to do so.

I think it is a situation in which people want troll rp, but many people seek to control it rather than let itself play out.
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11/07/2018 04:33 PMPosted by Hugorenfield
If I would I would like to point out that there is also a good bit of the issue that there is not any efforts to make meaningful reaching out to the community. However, there are projects that aim to do so.

I think it is a situation in which people want troll rp, but many people seek to control it rather than let itself play out.


Actually, there's a project going on right now that addresses that! It's called Loabound, designed to drum up Troll RP in general but also to ICly address the political ramifications of the Zandalari and other Tribes, the Caste system, and a common people's typical response to that. Essentially it's trying to be a Troll republic.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769719313

https://discord.gg/HCcEtkr

https://blizzard.com/invite/owbxBrWTwZD
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While I will always support new guilds coming to Moon Guard. I will always have my own guild come first when it concerns my time/attention. I, like many others, are very interested in this RP sphere, but often find that Iā€™m only able to contribute alt characters that may not get as much attention as required. I think there is space for a Troll RP guild on Moon Guard and I believe there will be many that might want to join up with one, but I believe youā€™ll find many like myself who are wanting to participate but not make troll RP their highest priority.

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I do not think that this is a phenomenon unique to Trolls and in fact applies to most if not all non-Blood Elf races. Just looking at the nature of probability, I would wager that a disproportionate amount of people on Moon Guard understand their Blood Elf characters to be their ā€œmainsā€, while other characters of races are ā€œaltsā€. The reason for this is likely complex, but the issue at hand is pretty simple: People donā€™t dedicate as much time and effort to alts.

Because guild RP is inherently reliant on its members to exist, issues arise when low interest in alt characters leads to low membership participation. In my observations, this discourages the few people who do have ā€œmainsā€ of these other races. I believe that this can be remedied by always establishing a core of 7-8 ā€œmainsā€ when making a guild, as that provides enough structure between the ā€œmainsā€ to coordinate more in-depth storylines and satisfactory character development and allows alt characters to enjoy their hour of RP before switching.

I donā€™t think I can name more than 4 people on MG who main Trolls, but I have been cloistered away for too long for my reads to be anything more than my opinion. But who knows, maybe someone will take this advice and use it.

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Yokumba makes some really valid points here.

Personally, I find myself a little frustrated over the obsession with blood elves. My surveys with Census indicate they make up about 43% of the Horde population, and WrA is the same. Everything else is about 3-9%. Itā€™s a shame, because there are so many interesting Horde races and cultures we could choose from.

So any guild that isnā€™t blood elf themed faces more difficulties getting established, than one that is.

One obvious solution is to let players of any race join a guild, as long as theyā€™re happy to have a troll theme, for example.

The other is to encourage the other races by providing a home for them, giving them lots of extra special attention. A troll surrounded by elves may feel awkward and out of place. A troll in the company of other trolls, or even orcs or tauren will likely be more comfortable.

Ironically, by restricting the company of a guild, you can actually attract more members because they will get to experience lore and culture that would otherwise be ignored.

Yes, members are going to be alts. Itā€™s hard, but itā€™s something we must come to terms with. However, in a prospering guild, members can and will change their alts to be their mains. Itā€™s all about what you can provide, that other guilds canā€™t.

Maybe we need to start coming up with ideas for guilds that are based around storylines and organisations, rather than race and culture. Iā€™ve had a number of Alliance people tell me that is one of their major turn-offs about Horde.

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If @Flywheel ever goes troll, Iā€™d main troll, albeit Zandalari.

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Honestly, I wouldnā€™t mind what I played. I just picked goblin because it was one of the least represented. Iā€™d take you with me anywhere Mekgrim. wink

Adding on to what I was saying before, for some reason when it comes to RP realms, people always want to play something that is ā€œsimilar to what they areā€ (or prettier). So for Alliance, this equates to humans, night elves, and void elves. For Horde, blood elves, but possibly nightborne as well in time.

All the other races are less popular because either
a) They donā€™t look as ā€œcoolā€
b) They are perceived as being harder to roleplay

The background lore is interesting, but I doubt thatā€™s what most people are thinking about, not on Moon Guard.

Itā€™s more ā€œhow likely am I going to get a date with this character?ā€ People seem to worry a lot about being viewed as inferior or ugly in some way. Iā€™m talking about the majority, not everyone.

Trolls have a bit of a double whammy. First you have to be able to deal with having tusks and less toes. Then you also have to think about the way you talk. For a lot of people, thatā€™s just way too much effort.

So how do you fix it? Troll promotion! Show everyone what makes trolls so different and interesting. It needs to be simple things, like voodoo spells and special ceremonies. Celebrate the leaders of past and present. What activities do trolls partake in that others donā€™t? Where are their special hangouts?

Politics are lore debates are interesting for the dedicated few. But to have more trolls, you need to come back to basics. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has never played a troll before. People donā€™t start off as experts, and having any expectations can be very scary for a beginner. They join a troll guild to learn, and you are their role model.

A troll main as a prominent figure will make others want to roll trolls simply by association. They want to be like you. They want to hear your stories, and your lore knowledge. They want to be seen with you, and hang with the cool and popular people. All it takes to start something like that is a transmog, a great RP profile, and visibility.

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