It’s really only a problem from a lens of what’s fair to two factions. When I watch Star Wars, I don’t consider it a bad series because there was never a film where the Rebellion were the bad guys. From an objective standpoint, it’s just a story decision, one that people are upset with because they have personal stock in who it affects.
There’s a difference between a bad story, and story you dislike.
I think that consideration trumps story, in a two-faction game where neither side was sold as “the bad guys.”
Also, it’s not like making one faction or faction leader into the villain is the only way to create a good story. There are plenty of other options without “going there.”
There are other options, sure. But the fact that they went with what they went with doesn’t inherently make the story they told bad. Even IF consideration trumps story - which I don’t think is true - villainbatting something doesn’t mean the story can’t be good just because it’s a playable faction.
I believe it is near-impossible to villain-bat a playable faction without creating problems in how the players on both sides view their factions and each other. It’s not worth the trouble it causes.
That’s not an issue with the story’s quality though.
Well, I see now how you manage to separate the two things. Personally, I think that’s too academic to make a practical difference. But I do see your point.
Except the idea is to break the system that has a Maw in it for souls to be sent to at all. Or at least that seems to be the general expectation.
The real probables with Sylvanas’s ends not justifying her means is that we don’t really know what those ends are , still.
How exactly does Sylvanas think the Jailer’s new system will be better than the old one? Why does she think we will have some control over our destinies that we don’t have now. How exactly does she square taking away other s free will to make that happen? Is it a necessary sacrifice? Is it something she thinks she can reverse after the Shadowlands are set right? How exactly would you ‘untorture’ someone’s soul?
The answe of course is that Blizzard doesn’t have any idea for how Sylvanas would make a better system because they plan to have us ‘fix’ the current system rather than let the villains replace it. Sylvanas having ‘break the system to fix the system’ as her motivation is just an excuse to give Anduin a chance to redeem her.
My worry is they’re going to frame it as some trolly problem. Or at least she’ll have perceived it as such. Then she’ll see the error of her ways and her penance will be replacing the Jailor or w/e.
And I just don’t buy that. Slyvanas is working with Kel’Thuzad at this point. And even if she doesn’t know that yet, she has to have sussed out the Jailor is connected to the Lich King. Or does she believe the identical architecture is merely coincidental?
I just don’t think you can salvage her character at this point without it feeling hollow. She’s already tried to torture the free will out of a sapient undead and now she’s working with the mastermind behind the Scourge. Theres no “Calm down bro it was a social experiment” at this point.
That’s my point though - the problem with her motivations is that they are still not clear. I’m pretty sure that’s because even the writers aren’t sure what they are as there is no silver bullet that could possibly square absolutely all of her actions and internal monologue between Edge of Night and Shadowlands because there isn’t a motivation that covers all of that.
They have painted themselves into a corner and seem to be gesticulating wildly at the opposite side of the room as some sort of explanation as to how they have gotten here, but they didn’t put in the ground work to make any explanation plausible, let alone satisfying.
If it makes you feel any better though, I kind of think they just want Sylvanas to seem vaguely so pathetic without actually making her sympathetic. They want people who are listing after her blood to keep up that fervor because they sunk a lot of game time and burned a ton of bridges getting hatred of Sylvanas to that fever pitch - they just want to have that and to eat their cake too, by extending the idea that maybe she thought she had been doing the right thing.
Although if taking away Anduin’s free will is the line she refuses to cross I will lmao at that.
where do you get that from these shadowlands cinematics? are we watching the same story unfold?
I thought she was just looking for someone to understand that she’s had very few choices and that has left her feeling like the universe is unfair, where do you get this idea that she’s looking for validation?
I’m really not understanding where all these alternative interpretations of the very matter of fact cinematics is coming from.
She wants someone else to understand that free will is a an illusion. How is that seeking validation for her choices? she’s literally saying free will doesn’t exist.
You almost got it. She wants everyone to believe that free will is an illusion. That way, she won’t have to admit that from the point where Arthas lost his grip over her, she has had full control over her actions, and that she truly is as much of a despicable monster as those actions imply. Of course she wants to hide from that fact. And I have a distinct feeling she will either have to confront that fact, or die ignorant.
free will is an illusion through, Devos actually points out the unfairness of the Shadowlands where she says the Arbiter chooses where everyone ends up. There’s no choice made in the Shadowlands, there is no free will in the shadowlands everything is done for “The Purpose.”
It’s also lore that time is linear and strict that’s why Morozond and the infinite dragonflight exist. If they didn’t then I would be willing to debate with you but we have tones of bronze dragon lore that proves that fate is a real cosmic threat. The Old Gods are fated to win. I’m sure this will all make more sense once they delve deeper into the Threads of Fate.
Do you actually believe your character has free will?
I’m sure it’s easier for some characters over others, for example it’s a widely debated hot topic if undead are actually free of the will of the Jailer, We Ride Forth poses that whole question. Sylvanas is also undead so maybe this expansion is delving into the layers of how much free will those ‘tied to the Shadowlands’ actually have.
If you are a DK in Legion Arthas as a ghost of the Lich King randomly pops up to tell you how much of a pawn you are the the power of the Lich King and how little free will you actually have in grand scale of things so all of this has to be considered.
Does my random blood elf have free will? probably, does the average undead have free will? probably not as much and that’s tied to the powers of Death and the Shadowlands so maybe it’s best to just take a back seat and see where this narrative goes.
Uh uh. The people there have free will. they’re not being mind controlled, or forced to serve against their will. Whether they serve a lie, we’ll see eventually I suppose.
You have it the wrong way around. the infinite dragonflight is proof that time can be altered, otherwise they would never have existed. Also, time is a construct of order, not the void. I have no idea where you got the idea that the old gods are fated to win, considering they got brutalized in all their attempts so far.
Let’s put it this way. Ellisande believed that the legion was destined to win, and that we were destined to lose, having peered into all possible timeways. We then promptly upended that belief by beating her, and her stating that fate doesn’t control us, but that we control it.
Time and time again we have faced up against foes who believed, with good cause, that it was impossible for us to win. And we have allways, without exception, proved them wrong. Mr cleans emo brother and his pet goth girlfriend will be no different in that regard. So yes, we have free will, and will use it to save the day, as we allways have.
Anduin pretty much says it himself. Sylvannus wants him to join volountarily to validate the choice SHE made in signing up with the Jailor.
If you are the only person who believes in a specific thing, be it good bad or crazy, then you may start to think you are the only one. However, get someone else to think that same thought, or to say out loud what it is you believe, then maybe you tell yourself you aren’t crazy. I think Sylv is hoping Anduin sees it her way, so she doesn’t think she is as horrible as we believe her to be. If someone else agrees with me, then I am not so crazy
That’s just not true at all. Each zone has shown some kind of force driving you to the covenant. Don’t want to ascend? You are doomed to repeat your trials until you want to ascend. Don’t repent your sins? You’ll be used as an anima cow until thrown in the maw. The maldraxxi are thrown into battle upon arrival… if you don’t survive you’ll be used as resources. Does the average soul really have a choice in these matters besides what the purpose intends for you?
The only people who have some semblance of free will are the night fey and the brokers. Considering ve’nari is on the run from the rest of the brokers… they don’t exactly have a choice in the matter as well.
Can’t this also be interpreted the other way around? It’s futile to try to change the timeline, because any attempts by the infinite dragonflight to do so have ended up being thwarted by fate and set things as they should be.
This has been a long canned lmao so I’m just going to share it.
They don’t know what they want to do with her, so, it’s a safe bet they’re going to kill her off. Don’t panic.
I’m very much sold on the idea that her drastic waffling of a character as a result of Afrasiabi destroying Sylvanas’ character as some office politics conflict for Kosak destroying Garrosh’s character.
They’re trying to piece her together to keep her on track but, frankly, mission accomplished, Sylvanas’ character has been ruined beyond all measure.
I’m laughing really hard over the fact that they smashed one of my favorite aspects of the Warcraft story over their knee for basically nothing. That’s so cool.
This is true…but…
This is also true.
The problem is making a story personal while also not allowing agency when being put into villain vs hero story.
The conclusion I have come to is that the problems both Horde and Alliance players have boils down to the fact they are still writing the game story the same way they did WC3. The last couple big story arcs have kind of been like they were writing the Horde campaign part of WC3.
They clearly wrote those events and that story and then tried to put the Alliance story in around it. This created obvious problems. Less attention, less content, lower quality story telling. Those are apparent and clear failings in story telling.
The Horde complaints are a little harder to quantify the same way. The problem is that WoW is not WC3. In WC3 we played through a long story in a very serialized manner. The focus was on the larger story. It didn’t matter if we were playing as the bad guys (see scourge) because it was the whole story we were concerned with. Nobody felt like they were unfairly forced into being the bad guys, because it was not on the personal level. WoW changes that formula. We play as a character. There in an inherent personal connection. It feels more like us doing it. When it is all about personal action and us doing something it can suddenly feel very uncomfortable to be the bad guy with no agency in it.
So, it is fair to say that as a whole story it is not a bad choice. But once you shift to that more personal perspective:
Ranger Captain Areiel says: Shandris, it’s been… two, three thousand years? To think we’d meet again like this, and with you helping a human, of all things.
The timeline fits and also Emmanuele says this on the windrunner bow quest
[Thas'dorah] is a mighty bow indeed! The weapon was carved from a limb of , the mother tree of [Eversong] and infused with the magic of the [Sunwell] I fought alongside its first wielder, [Talanas Windrunner] during an [Amani] troll incursion.Ah, but such tales can wait for another time.
So now we have Blizzard adding nelves on conflicts they didn’t even have a stake to begin with and doing what the Horde did to them
The Blood elves that spawned Sylvanas aren’t a different tribe of Trolls
Yes because killing is bad not matter the numbers.
Taurens weren’t part of that faction and Emmanuel says it was exclusive Night Elves but good try
But Tyrande isn’t wrong on what thing about the Horde? She was threating Thrall with an orphan army despite elves doesn’t have children that often and were going to burn down Orgrimmar some day.
She can go after the screecher for all I care
What about the Trolls killed in Chronicles where all that land occupied was taken or them participating in a war against the Amani despite living in another continent?
If that isn’t bad I dunno what to say
What other races?
Trolls kicked out of their land and razed cities from the first Kaldorei expansion and during the Amani wars doesn’t count?
Them we have them razing the Shatterspear village that while they were capturing civilians and killing them, razing a village with children(because otherwise it wouldn’t be called village) is a bit too much
https://www.wowhead.com/quest=13514/the-ancients-ire
Go ahead and take the company of one of the Vengeful Protectors there and see to it that every last building is destroyed and every last troll killed. We can't have them coming back for revenge when we're less prepared, can we?