Can I have your gold please.
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I’m curious, where do you believe the key levels too far apart? I can see heroic to m0, and the step from 9 to 10 being one since you suddenly have both tyr and fort, and 11 to 12 since the step suddenly gets way bigger. Other than that I just can’t see steps being too large, going from a 7 to an 8 feels quite identical to me.
I wouldn’t say people are having fun. It seems like the majority I played with hated it, at the very least, a good chunk was being toxic and hateful.
I mean… there was a few decent people, but most were so quick to badmouth the other players, even when there was few mistakes going on. I did a few +8’s that were very much doable, we had a couple deaths, but we still had enough room to time the key. But nope, people would bail.
If they decide to keep the timer, I would at least like them to consider cracking down on the negative behavior in the community. I brought up FF 14, and in that game, if you so much as start cussing at other players, or engaging in toxic behavior, a GM will instantly investigate it. I know a few people on there who got a 2 week ban because they were being a bit toxic in a raid. People on that game seem like they’re more mindful of their actions. Don’t get me wrong, there’s still bad apples in that game, but most people watch what they say. At least, from my 7 years of playing it. In WoW though? I see people saying all kinds of horrible things, and most of the time, it seems like it takes forever for Blizzard to investigate or even deliver punishment. I would report people here and there, some of them saying awful things, and it seems like Blizzard just didn’t do anything about it. Some of these players were doing it all the time, and I would still see them queuing for dungeons/raids and not a single mute or chat ban.
I mean, heck, I haven’t touched retail in a while, but even in Cata there’s still people being awful human beings. They just released a H+ dungeon mode, and in the first couple days, there was people cussing and screaming because not everyone knew the mechanics. It hadn’t even been 2 days yet, and I just did my first one. Some dude was basically screaming at me and the party, saying that we were wasting their time, just because I wasn’t 100% sure what all the mechanics were. I read up on it a little, but still didn’t fully understand it all. Again, it was just over a day old, and people act like you should know everything instantly and be in complete BiS, and never mess up a mechanic. The sad thing was, I actually did most of the mechanics after the first wipe, we just had an undergeared healer. After this toxic player left, and the healer took off, we cleared it shortly after.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that if Blizzard wants harder, more challenging content, they need to bring down the hammer on toxic behavior. Faster punishments, no toleration for it. They make you agree to the ToS when you first log into WoW, which says to treat others with respect. People get away with too much on WoW :\
And those can simply just not play it, that’s an easy solution that works for everyone. M+ is by far the most popular end-game pillar in wow, you might as well remove raids, delves, and pvp if you’re to remove m+ with that reasoning.
Absolutely, I’m all for punishing people acting as jerks. Wouldn’t mind if they were able to find a proper way to reward a good behaviour either.
Absolutely, I 100% agree. Seems like what you actually want deleted is toxicity rather than m+, no?
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I would have quit a long time ago if I played this game for things like Mythics and Raids. I’m more of an alt fanatic and world content player, much more relaxing and don’t need to deal with the rude players in the game. Last time I enjoyed raiding with a guild was the Wrath expansion and never cared to do it anymore.
Time and again, I have defined what a middle ground is for you. I have tried to make you understand what a middle ground should look like. Middle ground is: Content that’s challenging and expects more out of the player but isn’t overtly-punishing that there are no failsafes in place for wipes. It should have a sense of progression that doesn’t immediately jump from 5 to 10 to 15 to 20. It should look like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc. etc. Or if inclined, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12.
The current trajectory already starts at 10, putting players unfamiliar with M+ at a severe disadvantage off the rip.
When I say M+ should be challenging but not so challenging that it dissuades players from pursuing higher keys, you - as a reasonable adult - should be able to understand that I’m not asking for M0 or 1+ or 2+ to be baby levels of difficulty. I truly did not think this needed spelled out.
If you think the way it’s structured right now is perfectly fine and are only conceding the point on M0, then you’re not in favor of a middle ground. You just think your position is the middle ground, which explains why you don’t seem to understand my points here lol
Fixing the first step won’t solve the problem. It needs to be substantive and systemic. If you move M0 down and keep everything else the same, you’re not solving anything. If nothing else, you’re just making the problem worse.
It’s fine if you think the way M+ was structured was fine this past season. It’s well-documented the difficulty curve was far too punishing and far less enjoyable for numerous players, so evidently something was wrong.
I mean, do you want me to give you a number?
Because the number isn’t what matters here more than the implementation. Having more difficulty levels does allow for more flexibility, sure, but you could be easily flexible with a 12+ key cap and be fine.
Here’s the current mode of progression:
0 (10) → 1 (12) → 2 (14) → 3 (16) → 4 (18) → 5 (20) → 6 (22) → 7 (24) → 8 (26) → 9 (28) → 10 (30)
In a more balanced and fair system, it would look more like:
0 (2) → 1 (4) → 2 (6) → 3 (8) → 4 (10) → 5 (12) → 6 (14) → 7 (18) → 8 (20)
Yeah, pretty much. I must admit that I don’t like the timer, but if people weren’t so toxic, it wouldn’t be that bad. The Toxicity is exactly why I stopped playing it.
You’re disagreeing with the English language, not me.
Lol no you haven’t, you’ve just kept saying you that there is a middle ground.
This is the first time you actually define a middle ground.
And my point still stands, if players are able to do just a +2 but not a +3 they have a place where they’re able to challenge themselves and develop as a player. That is within that +2. It isn’t currently an extreme jump from a +2 to a +3, it’s ridiculous to argue that there is.
We’ve already found agreement here. If the current m0 is such an unfathomable wall for a substantial amount of players, blizzard should implement more stepping stones between heroic dungeons and m0. I’m not saying it should be 10 stepping stones like it used to be, but two or three stepping stones would be just fine.
So where are the steps that are too extreme? Is it at 9 to 10 because of both tyr and fort? Is it at 11 to 12 because the increased hp and dmg? Is it at every step above 12 because the steps are now bigger (that’s being changed in S2 anyway)?
What you’re suggesting is the same difficulty change in between key levels (although idk why you want 6(14) to go to 7(18) and then 7(18) to go to 8(20), making a bigger step (4) in the middle just to back to regular steps (2) again afterwards), you just reduce the barrier to entry, which you said weren’t yourself weren’t going to solve the problem.
You dont have to study guides for 16 hours a day to be able to play, thats over-dramatic. plenty of people pick up the game and play pretty casually but catch on quick and do very well. Sounds like it wasnt for you, so i guess that sucks. Bye.
No, I’m disagreeing with you in particular.
There is such a thing as an unintentional design, whether you admit it or not.
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thats a long wall of complaint.
tl:dr - “im the problem”
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I’m not playing atm, but could someone else hold your stuff for me?
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Design: “do or plan (something) with a specific purpose or intention in mind.”
Long time M+ enjoyer, finally tried high key pushing in DF s2 and 3 (27s in 3, was close to pug’ing title but that was a nightmare) and yeah…It never gets better.
It’s funny how at the low casual end you can have the same complaints as people on the high end, but somehow there’re always people on the forum telling you it’s somehow your fault.
The biggest issue Blizz refuses to accept is that a toxic community is partially their fault. Why are people raging about single-digit keys where it should be a joke and have fun? Because the key goes down when it’s failed. They expect it to be 10 levels higher than it is, but that progress is delayed when someone who’s new gives it a try.
The whole “under 12 won’t deplete but you need to get through pug hell for 2.8k rating first” change we have incoming is a meme. Low-end players won’t hit 2.8k, high end players get no benefit because they’re doing weekly 10s on alts then have the same old toxicity in 15+.
I skipped s1, very let down with dungeon set, but giving s2 a whirl because everyone I know is playing (sigh). I’m optimistic, but I’m also ready/expecting plenty of headache and frustration…so I can’t be let down.
Plenty of other games where the community is less toxic because the game doesn’t incite toxicity through design. Def would recommend seeing your options.
From the looks of it he didn’t even have the chance. Sounds like he experienced what many low level dungeons have, try hards who don’t realize there could be new people in the group and want to speed run without letting the newbie learn. Then when the newbie makes a mistake they get flamed. Same can be said for any level of key one mistake and you lambasted for not knowing the dungeon route, even if you are new
There are plenty of ways to experience all content in WoW without dealing with toxicity. You desided to PuG, well, there you go.
Tanks have the most responsibility, they’re also the most wanted spec and have zero issues finding groups in a heartbeat. If tanking was stupid easy, everyone would do it.
Same for healing. That’s why DPS wait in queues for 30+ minutes while I’m done doing two dungeons.
Find a guild, or join a community and enjoy toxic-free dungeons. It really isn’t hard.
Lets not pretend like the alternatives are any better. Every MMO has this type of community, even the fake-friendly FFXIV.
Hey you need to try playing the game with GSE ( Gnome Sequencer) they make 1 button macros that you keep tapping and it does your rotation for you. It makes the game alot easier and you can concentrate on keeping aggro and dodging stuff.
Which is why it wasn’t intentional…
Sigh. Literal Joes are so hard to deal with.
I mean, I stopped running even normal and heroic dungeons, because people are too often toxic as heck in THOSE.
You can be consistently pulling your weight in dps, not pull anything by accident, not die, help with interrupts and other mechanics, all the bosses/trash are tackled smoothly, and people will just…kick you for giggles, and then whisper abuse. This kick often took effect as the final boss died, leaving me wondering how and why I got ported out, until the mocking and awareness of a deserter buff. Mind you, per Blizz devs, this is the system working as intended.