I don’t like this idea that they only listen to the best players in the world. The best players in the world very often are only interested in how their class/spec does in their content, nothing else really matters to them as much. So if they listen to them then all the other players out there have to put up with class/spec are tend to be only decent in that one activity.
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I feel like this is an issue with the community, not shamans in general. Group comp really doesnt start impacting the key heavily until you push like +14’s or higher (unless you’re running like 3 warlocks or something rediculous). I’ve seen crazy good Enh shamans.
Is Ele better right now? Yes. But I’d still put enhancement in the top 3 melee dps after DH and WW monk because of all the utility they bring (hard CC, stuns, slows, short interrupt, earth elemental, etc).
This is encouraging; guess i’ll have to try to find wtf i am doing wrong. I’m sitting at 10-12 keys right now, and it does feel like my cleave falls off considerably compared to the mage, rogue, or ww monk i play with.
I mean, I don’t think it’s a huge secret that this is what’s driving community perception:
(can’t include links, so remove the space)
warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/19
warcraftlogs .com/zone/statistics/20#class=DPS
In particular, enhancement sits in that cluster of specs at the bottom that are some 3-5% behind the primary “pack” in UIdir and perhaps ~6-8% behind in m+, and it ranks 13 out of 13 for melee dps specs overall in both settings. Plus, we don’t bring anything strong/unique like battle shout or physical/magic debuff that encourages you to bring warrior/monk/demon hunter even if their numbers aren’t the best (not like demon hunters have to worry about that, though).
The solution to such a perception would seem to point you toward the spec tuning auras, though it probably doesn’t help that some of the best-performing melee DPS in terms of throughput are also highly desired for m+ for their utility (rogues, demon hunters), and at the end of the day you only have so much room to slot melee dps.
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Your “answer” isn’t related to his lack of a solution. He starts off by saying Enh numbers are actually fine from what he can tell and the reason they aren’t brought to groups is due to people still viewing them through the lens of 8.0 and not giving them a chance since their 8.1 improvements. He has no solution for this issue of perception.
Reading/listening to feedback and implementing more changes doesn’t change the community’s perception of them. Unless you mean to say to buff them to the point where that perception is forcefully change immediately, the point at which they would be overpowered.
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All of the issues, including poor tuning, were definitely pointed out months and months before the release during Alpha. That’s when they needed to listen.
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I understood that perfectly fine, and I’m merely saying that the community doesn’t have any evidence indicating that it’s true (thus, the perception).
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That is a bit discouraging. I mean, you can see the perception there with the number of dh, rogue, frost mage, druid, bm hunter parses compared to everyone else. But to still be that low compared to other classes, makes me feel i’m not alone.
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More generally (i.e. pulling away from specifically enhancement):
The design philosophy of correcting +/- 10-20% dps discrepancies with ~3-6% aura adjustments in order to “reduce the size of the gap” but absolutely never change the ordering of specs is probably another good place to look at for why specs that start out an expansion in the dumpster never end up having said perception corrected.
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Sorry Rastlin, disagree. No one is excluded from mythic. I’ve done mythic Taloc (admittedly he’s the easiest of all of them) , the rest are skill at a level I dont have. If I wanted to, I COULD hammer out with practice and do the rest, it just doesnt appeal to me.
(What I have achieved this tier has both amazed and delighted me…maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks…)
No one is excluded from mythic, you just have to go that extra mile and hone your skills.
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Addons are not cheating in any sense, Rastlin.
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Looking at the keys you have completed - there are plenty of priests who have cleared higher who don’t have your stringent requirements.
To be totally honest - any +10 key can be completed by any class provided they have gear, ability, and coordination. If you’re just rolling your face on the keyboard and not coordinating interrupts, stuns, etc - yeah, you’ll hit roadblocks much sooner.
And I would say that M+ is really a lot more about skill. Right now I think you can find basically every spec has completed every dungeon at a +15 (could be wrong). Is it harder than some other group comps? Sure. But unless you’ve hit that ceiling you have no real foot to stand on here.
Also, it takes knowledge to know what dungeons are best with which keys.
At what key level?
Again, what key level?
If these aren’t 20+ keys, which are being done with single healers mind you, then this sounds like an issue of just random grouping with bad players as much as you want to blame something besides the particular players.
This sounds like you, and or they, most certainly do not know what is up if you are having to two tank an 11 in Temple.
Your examples say otherwise.
You mean a bug was corrected because things that aren’t meant to spawn orbs were spawning orbs.
This is disingenuous at best. The only “AoE” that targets them now are single targeted abilities that bounce, i.e. avenger’s shield and chain lightning and only when the orb is the primary target. That these abilities that are effectively single target in their target design didn’t work was a ridiculous oversight all the way back in Legion. I don’t think even HotR or SotR hit orbs which left prot paladins with auto-attacks and judgment to target the orbs which was absurd.
None of your post really seems to be about the affixes themselves, but really just social issues with other players or lack of effective play by players. The post you went and dug up has nothing to do with this discussion that I can see.
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I have seen requests circulating for ranged dps to get it own category in group finder type systems. Does that seem to suggest that groups are looking to sideline more classes or that people only want to see some classes and not bother with others?
Its a non-issue functionally because I am certain such a category would never be implemented but it does seem to voice a desire by the community at large.
I think this would be good for all parties involved.
The person creating the group, so he can not receive a ton of melee apps when listing in the title / description that they are looking for ranged.
The person applying to groups as well, so they aren’t sitting there waiting 5 minutes to see if they get invited to the party, when the party only wants a ranged.
No downside to adding the ability to specify Ranged/Melee dps.
Pugs often gauge capability based on the performance of the aboslute top end.
The scaling nature of M+ means that eventually the content will be mathematically impossible, or at least incredibly difficult. Abilities will one-shot players, DPS requirements will be impossible to meet, etc.
This is the point that we are right now with the +20s. Nobody has timed higher than a +22 because we currently don’t have a way to do so, or the likelihood of success is so low that it just hasn’t happened.
The first thing to become impossible is the DPS check to beat the timer. To beat the DPS check we do a few things. AoEs scale with the number of mobs hit, so bigger pulls are better. Some packs are better value than others in terms of potential DPS, hit points and the amount of contribution they give. Some routes are better than others in terms of cooldown timings and access to prime packs. So you get a bit of an edge by choosing an optimal path, and a rogue with shroud enables paths that are not accessible to a group without shroud.
The next is AoE and Cleave. Both are ways to stack DPS, but AoE capability is foremost because of the way that it scales with the number of available mobs. The absolute best is classes that have high burst AoE options, because they frontload their damage, and the cooldowns reset between pulls. Sustained AoE is still important and they need to be competitive, but frontloaded burst is better than ramped burst when sustain over long periods is similar.
Then you need control of mobs. Stuff is one-shotting players because the pulls are bigger than are comfortable, and the damage is scaling high, so you need ways to interrupt multiple casters. You also personal cooldowns to survive attacks that would otherwise be fatal.
The current meta then mandates a rogue for path choice. DH basically is the absolute golden child in terms of supreme defensive capability, great single target sustain and great AoE burst by a landslide. Too much melee can cause it’s own problems with certain mechanics, so a ranged AoE DPS is the next necessity.
Enhancement’s issue isn’t anything to do with enhancement, it’s that rogue is mandated, DH has survivability supremacy, and you don’t want to bring 3 melee.
But this is only the case when you are up against the limit that standard DPS strategies are invalid and where incoming damage is unsurvivable.
In content where normal play is possible, where pulling a pack at a time and killing it as fast as possible will meet the timer, using interrupts to interrupt abilities and maximizing dps, then all the classes are actually in a pretty good spot.
However, in content where you MUST pull multiple packs to meet the DPS timer, where normal interrupts are inadequate because you have multiple packs, but allowing spells to go off will lead to unavoidable deaths, you MUST have aoe stuns, knockbacks, invulnerabilities, etc. Where you MUST have a certain capability to skip this one pack and pull another one instead.
In this case, the tool kit changes. This is content at a level where players have to be really creative because the content is impossible on paper using standard play. As Mythic+ keep ramping up the numbers, this will ALWAYS end up being the case.
You will always see a rogue. Not because of their DPS (which is good), or their combat utility (which is also good) but because they can shroud, and while there are alternatives to shroud, none give the same level of choice about which targets to kill as shroud does. You will also see strong AoE classes.
This is entirely because of the timer on the dungeons. The timer is the first thing that limits progress right now.
If you changed the Mythic+ success condition to be “complete the dungeon with fewer than 5 deaths” instead of a timer, then rogues would still be necessary if they allowed you to skip the hardest packs. But after that, AoE damage would no longer be the demand, instead it would be more a matter of control, survivability and defensive cooldowns. We would see groups taking players who did the most reliable CC, who had the best interrupts, or personal defensive cooldowns and immunities.
If instead M+ was designed such that there was no overall timer for the dungeon, but bosses individually had a hard enrage if you took too long the meta would become focused around bringing classes with the highest single target DPS, and skipping packs wouldn’t matter, nor would being able to do great AoE.
Mythic+ is designed in such a way that the primary limiting factor is first meeting the timer, and trash is the biggest component in the time taken. Thus, the main considerations are in maximizing trash DPS, which once gear and player skill are maximized can only be further improved by pulling bigger packs, in skipping the slower packs and killing the quicker packs, which is enabled by rogues, and in surviving the amplified damage that might be designed to be avoidable but may become unavoidable through the confluence of attacks caused by pulling multiple packs, and further interrupting those attacks through creative mechanics.
I think I would prefer it if the weekly affix, rather than being Tyrannical and Fortified was instead a change to the entire ranking system.
So for instance, if one week your key was based on meeting an overall timer for the dungeon. Next week bosses have a hard enrage at x minutes. Next week you have a limited quantity of deaths.
If you’re a class that doesn’t have great AoE capacity but you do good single target DPS, you will be valuable pushing high during the boss week. If you have a bunch of utility and control but are overall middle of the pack for DPS, you might be great in a no-death week.
The frustrating thing about M+ is that it accentuates a single style of play at the top levels which is controlling and killing the largest number of high-count low-risk low-health mobs possible. Rogues let you pick the prime packs. AoE DPS multiple their damage by the number of targets. It’s also why you see BDK, because they have the best ability to survive an unavoidable spike, they have the best tools to arrange the group for maximizing DPS with grasp and grip. It’s also why you see a lot of druid and monk healers, because it’s easy to swipe or spinning crane kick with spare GCDs without getting in the way of your healing and be able to pick back up healing instantly. Disc gets there too because of the way they deal damage and heal, but monk and druid are more focused and can easily go full DPS and full heal when the situation demands it without losing anything, while a disc has ramp time.
Other classes are certainly good, and in many cases better. But they’re better at things that aren’t the constraints currently affecting mythic+ progression. I think an interesting way to correct this would be to periodically change the constraints. For instance Blizzard has said that Feral druid is designed to not have a focus on AoE dps. Because of this, as long as the timer system works the way it does in Mythic+, feral druid will, by design, never be a class that competes pushing Mythic+. However, remove the timer, and now the thing that keeps the feral druid out of the running will disappear.
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Does that seem to suggest that groups are looking to sideline more classes or that people only want to see some classes and not bother with others?
Looking at Uldir as a baseline, some fights are better suited to ranged vs melee.
Team comp is kinda an individual thing.
Are you also aware of the fact that mm Hunter is very statistically close to unused in ranked arena? Last time I checked arenamate, there were 11 of them that played to rival range or above in the entire world. I am less of a pve guy, but what I can tell from wcl is that it’s still behind other specs by a pretty good margin.
Sometimes it’s a perception issue and sometimes the specs really are broken. Mm is still broken and we’d like a little back and forth on our feedback threads please.
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Sure. I think everyone can agree they should have listened to the feedback sooner.
But when someone says “Now that we have made improvements we are struggling with player perception and don’t know how to fix that” and your response is “Well you should have made the changes earlier” you’re not really adding to the discussion or addressing the problem he is raising. Your suggestion doesn’t fix the player perception problem does it? Unless you intend to imply the perception problem only exists BECAUSE they didn’t listen sooner, in which case your post isn’t very clear about that.
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I think that’s a great post - I would actually want to do Mythics if it wasn’t a race against the timer every time.
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You know what’s crazy as well: I still perceived shadow priests as garbage ( At least they were ALL LEGION in M+ ) until last night running a shrine M10… this guy was TOP DAMAGE by far… I ate my words at the end of that run