20 seconds CD that cannot be dispelled and rogue can also cheap shot/gauge/garrote/blind/disarm on top of it…
22 Likes
I mean kidney is kinda like, their thing.
But people shouldn’t get totally melted and be unhealable during it. rogues hardly even have to cross cc or get support from teammates to help with damage while the rogue supplies the stunlock. the ms effect and damage are so strong and consistent that the rogue often doesn’t even need to kidney to outpace healing.
6 Likes
Kidney is their thing in the same way that building combo points on a target before sticking them in a six second stun is their thing.
Rogues have benefited excessively from a lot of quality of life changes like faster movement in stealth, vanish protection, combo points not being per target, and blind removing dots.
As much of a beast as rogue is, I’d rather not see cornerstone abilities seriously gutted or reworked. Just revert how combo points work.
2 Likes
i mean a full 5 second stun every 20 second seems kinda absurd
there’s way too much cc in this game, and the feeling is stronger in a meta where people die in a 3 second stun.
11 Likes
You’re not mad at Kidney shot, you’re mad at everything else that Kidney exposes and makes worse.
Leave kidney alone
Kidney shot is fine. I’d nerf their damage before hitting utility
3 Likes
Why not make it 3s stun like all other physical stuns.
1 Like
Vanish/restealth protection(shielding) doesn’t exist. Vanish – when talented in a manner that Assassination does not take – gets a 30% max hp heal over 6 seconds when vanishing.
The single avenue of vanish shield is deep in Sub, and is terrible… AND is nerfed in PvP.
Rogue QOL changes? Questioning that. A few examples would be… Outlaw nerfed in PVE because it was “too fun” to play, forcing rogues into a significantly worse rotation. Echoing Reprimand sucks to use. Ambush maintenance as all 3 specs shoved into pve rotations is terrible considering there’s no button auto-update for (mutilate, sinister strike) causing excess button bloat. BF no longer a toggle. Only one spec gets cut to the chase. Roll The Bones is horrible to use/extremely sporadic affecting your pve play significantly - plus costs a bind/gcd/energy for no reason. Killing Spree is a death sentence to use anywhere in PvE - Blade Rush does really mediocre damage. Poisons are still 1hr duration instead of just… buffs applied… Tricks damage removed…
The only recent QOL change Rogues have received is Feint being made baseline – while being nerfed in nearly every spec every patch for two months straight.
I think you misunderstand what I mean by quality of life changes.
Vanish protecting being immunity to being brought out of stealth by damage while vanish is active, which makes things like sapping off blind even easier. Or how much less vulnerable to being detected in stealth rogues are. Or combo points not being per target, which was a big part of why kidney shot could justify having a low cooldown.
1 Like
the issue isn’t kidney shot, blind, vanish or any other core rogue mechanic. Rogues have always had that whether they were good or bad. It’s everything else around it. They would nerf death mark before they nerf a core ability like that.
And this precisely is why rogues have been S+ meta for 4 years now.
I’ll take a nerf on crippling poison slow reduction and wound poison healing reduction first.
Rogues already have insane movement speed, why do they need a constant 100% slow
It’s fine if they do a lot of damage, but I should be able to heal through it at certain times, not a constant 100% uptime on 40% healing reduction.
I’m sure Blizzard has some excuse for believing it is okay, but clearly it isn’t and hasn’t been for a very long time. Rogues toolkit is out dated and made for a game that no longer exists. It needs pruning and changes and Kidney shot is top of that list.
I’d like to see:
- Blind & Sap share a diminishing return.
- Sap have a 20 sec CD so that you can’t sap an evokers entire shroud off instantly.
- Kidney Shot 45 sec CD with 5 sec duration.
- Deathmark duplicated dots nerfed, not sure by how much though.
On a side note, I think Shadowy Duel is also an extremely unfun mechanic and should not have been added to the game.
3 Likes
This ^^^^^^
crazy how how they also have sap lol
Seems like overkill. Besides that, Deathmark is already nerfed.
Although tbh, it could be that Kidney Shot is slightly too strong. The old-school game was balanced more around give and take with damage, control, utility, etc., whereas modern design has (at least comparatively) equalized damage output between specs.
A starting point may be to reduce Kidney to 5s (from 6) at 5 combo points. It might also be worth considering increasing the CD to 30s.
Buff Rogues
1 Like
Rogues could do no damage and on their CC kit alone, could probably do fairly well because controlling a fight is precisely what they’re good at.
Their damage should be toned down, but rest of their kit is fine imo
1 Like
Each one of these individually would be beyond overkill and you want the entire lot.
Maybe 45s kidney would be ok. But i dont think the result would be everyone magically surviving where they didnt before.
I just always feel frustrated reading stuff like, sap needs a cooldown. Sap doesnt need a cooldown. Rogues need a nerf to energy economy.
Sapping 3x should gas the rogue.
I feel like 90% of the concerns with modern rogue are solved by making pvp specific changes to energy. (Cost / generation / whatever.) They obviously wont revert combo point changes. So they need to address their irresponsibly versatile talent trees and the gameplay they produce.
That and deathmark is just badly designed. How can it exist in a healthy state? Either bleeds are useless and the primary offensive cooldown is low value. Or bleeds do damage and its too strong.
Its similar to shadowy duel in that regard. Blizzard likes giving rogue tools it doesnt need.
To be clear, im not saying kidney isnt strong. It’s one of if not the best stuns in the game. Im saying because kidney is so strong the rogue keeps getting overdesigned and then we end up being oppressive.
Rogues shoukd be the epitome of keep it simple. The grandmaster of build and spend. But they keep givng us new tools that take it over the top.
Never going to happen. Buff Rouges. Play a dwarf forehead.
1 Like
Nerf dwarf plz
1 Like