Arthas lost his soul, his identity essentially the moment he picked up Frostmourne.
When he picked up that blade, Arthas Menethil literally ceased to be.
Sylvanas to spite her undeath, still had her soul, was still in essence the same being the Soulless Death Knight killed.
She embraced hers willingly.
Categorically wrong in every sentence. His actions after Frostmourne showed the same exact character as those before he picked them up. Terenas still recognises him as his son as he lies dying on top of Icecrown.
If you don’t get this from the obvious clues in game WOW or in playing Arthas in Warcraft, the Arthas novel spells it out even more plainly.
You need to replay Warcraft 3, and Reread the Arthas Novel.
Multiple characters tell him this, and Arthas even says “Then I’ll make do without one.”
Without a Soul that wasn’t Arthas. The real Arthas was imprisoned in Frostmourne, the Real Arthas was the child image in the Arthas Novel that the soulless version represses and almost destroys.
Arthas couldn’t stop himself, and likely didn’t even realize what was happening until it was far too late…
Sylvanas has been fully conscious and with her soul the entire time, everything she has done once shaking off the lich kings control in Frozen Throne is 110% purely on her.
Where as The Moment Arthas took up Frostmourne he ceased to be Arthas in all but name.
Deal with it.
Read the Lore.
I’d honestly say even without his soul, he was still Arthas. He had all his memories. His personality. His traits. Everything that would make Arthas, Arthas just without his soul, then later his humanity.
It’ll be pretty boring if they just come out and say “It’s okay guys. That cool story you followed about a heroes fall? Don’t worry it wasn’t actually the hero, it was just a soulless husk and nothing he did is his fault.”
Like…could there be any more boring a way to kill what made Arthas an interesting character?
Stop with that nonsense.
Her gender has nothing to do with it. Being a woman is not a free ticket for anything.
Sylvanas is basically hitler, no matter her gender. She did horrible deeds and whatever punishments awaits her is not based on her gender but her deeds.
You are just derailing her and use gender as a straw man.
Stop that it is insulting for every woman to have her gender abused for your rediculous agenda.
All undead souls are imperfectly attached and lead to broken personalities. Sylvanas ceased being the same person she was in life as soon as Arthas killed, raised, tortured and enslaved her.
I’ve read the material and played the game. We obviously take different takes from it.
When Arthas tells Muradin “I’ll make do without one”, it’s because he’s already made himself into a near soulless monster by his own actions. He’s mass murdered his countrymen, betrayed his soldiers, and murdered the mercenaries he hired.
You can’t pin ANY of that on Frostmourne. Yes, Mal’Ganis was playing him like a flute under Ner’zhul’s direction, but those were choices that HE made.
Arthas shows his vindictiveness with Uther outside of Stratholme and his sheer contrariness in his unwillingness to heed his father, his mentor, or even his lover.
Again, you can’t blame any of that on Frostmourne.
The character of his actions does not change once he bonds with the blade, the only difference is that the last of his moral inhibitions are cast aside. Frostmourne did not eat his soul the way it did others. what it did was refine Arthas to his essential self.
Arthas plus Frostmourne was essentially Arthas cranked up to 11. That’s the only explanation for all of the cruelty he exercised in just to indulge his own whims… the indulgences that ultimately left him exposed to Sylvannas when his grip slackened.
Sylvannas is totally responsible for what she did, I never denied it. But what she became is the result of his deliberate and Human arrogance and cruelty. So in that respect he shares in that responsibility for making her into the monster she is today. It would be the ultimate trade of justice for cynicism to redeem Arthas at her expense.
After returning from Northrend a Dreadlord tells him Frostrmourne has consumed his soul.
The Death knight says. “Then I’ll Make do without one.” Not the Paladin to Muradin.
Like I said re-read the Lore.
Consider yourself check mated.
BTW
It’s okay for a Female character to be punished for Wrong doings.
Deal with it.
I don’t think anyone’s saying Sylvanas can’t be punished for wrongdoings. It’s the creepy, near-fetishistic way you described the method that came off as really weird.
So tell me… what kind of Paladin kills an entire city of innocents, men, women, and children, many of which might not have been yet infected with the plague?
What kind of Paladin disobeys his king? Assumes authority that he does not have? Betrays the men under his command? Murders his own accomplices to cover his own actions.
Seems to me that he was pretty much a Death Knight already before he even touched that cursed artifact weapon.
Then a soul is pointless? A soul in Warcraft seems to be the person’s quintessential essence, without that, they aren’t them. I 100% agree with you, that it would ruin the character that we as players know, if Arthas was just some doppelganger.
You can make the argument that when Arthas said he would pay any price, that giving up his soul was one of them, which consents to him being a monster. I doubt he knew what he was really agreeing to, but there’s at least some accountability with that.
Him not having a soul was in response to how Arthas was able to damn everyone and everything he loved and did not care.
They didn’t say he was no longer Arthas, they said that he no longer had insignificant things like love and compassion to hold him back anymore.
And gods I hope they stick with that and not lean into absolution via No Soul.
That may have been what was originally intended, but the current developers that have been milking WoW for years have made the soul this tangible thing, which is even more of a mess because souls can ‘split.’ WoW lore is so over the hill… I just have to accept that the minds behind what I like are gone.
Personally, I think that’s enough to say that Scourge Arthas is a different person. He might have some of the same personality traits, but the ability to feel love and have empathy is a very important part of who people are.
I’ve said this before, but if there’s a “redemption” arc, I believe that the Lich King (Ner’zhul and/or Arthas, your pick) will come out as having been opposed to the Jailer from the beginning, and controlling the Scourge was a means to that end. If nearly all souls end up in the Maw, then keeping them as zombies in Azeroth may have simply been a holding pattern until a miracle happens and the whole afterlife thing starts working again.
I’ll just chime in and say, whatever was walking after he grabbed frostmourne was NOT arthas, case in point, he was asking his father if it was over after we kicked whatever was in there after tirion shattered frostmourne.
Guys we know souls exist in this game and that they can get twisted, split, deformed, we know for a fact the damned sword sucked up souls, we know you can take someone’s soul and put it somewhere else then its a totally different person (the illidari that is posessing the dreadlord, sargeras was going to use illidan’s body as a host etc…)
We know his soul was in the blade we are explicitly told HIS was the first one the blade claimed, in theory you could extract his soul from frostmourne, put it somewhere else (i dont know a robot body there was also that eredar dude that wanted a new robot body) and he would FIGHT the lich king because he really didnt wanted to damn everyone he loved.
i do not like the idea of arthas getting a redemption but i believe arguing if he was the same after he took the blade is ridiculous, Arthas story is tragic because he caused his own downfall on his quest of vengeance.
edit: i think its bad if i say so myself but robo arthas vs the lich king is something too awesome to happen.
I have to admit that I find it weird to hold the opinion “Arthas’ story is great!” as well as the opinion “Arthas’ story ended it ended when he picked up the sword. After that it wasn’t him.”
Can you really hold both of those opinions simultaneously?
Set aside whatever your conception of the soul metaphysics is - how does is make sense as a narrative for Arthas to have ceased when he picked up the sword? His entire arc is about his own flaws and misguided righteousness leading a kingdom to ruin. His trajectory, moral and narrative, doesn’t alter because of Shadowmourne, the point of the story is that picking up the cursed blade was the culmination of his fall, not its origin. He didn’t become damned (in the narrative sense) because he picked up the blade, that is the opposite of how stories work. He picked up the blade because he was damned.
The point of his comment about “Then I’ll make do without (a soul)” wasn’t some flat statement of utility, it’s a reflection of how far he had already fallen - he was already ‘soulless’ at that point because of his own growing inhumanity. He didn’t care that he was soulless morally, which is why he was ‘soulless’ in the fantasy logic - that’s what it was representing/reflecting.
Come on guys, this is middle school level subtext. Hell, it’s just text. Do we not grasp the idea of a metaphor? Do you think the point of Scarface is that he turned evil because he did a lot of [snow]? Is the moral of Lord of The Rings that the evil band of metal mind controls you to make you want it, and you’re without culpability? No! The ring’s function in-universe was to play on people’s existing flaws, and narratively it was a symbol for power/wealth/greed.
Arthas was Arthas when he picked up the sword, and he was Arthas afterward. The entire point and reason the story is compelling is that it’s the drama of a young man in the possession of power being corrupted by it. It doesn’t work if you read it literally that the sword zapped him out of existence and that’s where the trouble began. What damned him was himself, not the sword, so declaring that he ceased to be when he got it misses the point.
This is what I’m hoping is the case, along with my stupid idea of Arthas coming back, just to remain a villain and become the Maw King in his personal civil war with the Jailer.
what would he do that
yep but there are quests where the player goes back to azeroth during.
Also I dont know why people are dumb enough to think arthas will get a redemption lol at most he gets sent to revandrath too see
Seriously. In order to have a redemption arc, a character would need to have some redeeming qualities. Arthas has a great jawline and hair, but that’s about it for his good qualities.
Like has anyone revisited WC3 recently? Arthas stomps down the path to damnation, merrily ignoring and alienating all his mentors and friends. And by the time he’s in Northrend and picks up Frostmourne despite a “CURSED SWORD - SERIOUSLY DUDE DON’T TOUCH IT” sign plastered next to the thing it’s abundantly clear this is about him and his quest to slay Mal’Ganis. It’s not about his kingdom or the people therein or even the men serving him, and it probably never really was. He’s the bad guy before he becomes a Death Knight.
I think WC3 imprinted in so many minds because it’s a disobedient fairy tale. The handsome prince is the villain, the orc warlord is the hero, and the elves that save the day are the savage blurple wild ones not the ones who look like German supermodels with weird ears.