I think the reason I don’t feel its a ‘night elf’ zone is there isn’t a single dead night elf who has focus. Tyrande and Shandris are visitors. Otherwise when you’re interacting with the people who actually inhabit the zone you have a Tauren hero, a troll god, a dragon (who admittedly has night elf ties), and some aliens who happen to worship the same deity as the NE’s.
It feels like calling Orbos’ story a Death Knight zone because Bolvar is the primary quest giver there. Tyrande’s story is lumped into ardenweald, without really being innately part of the zone.
Ysera I would even put in this box to an extent. I get that they showed that she was sympathetic to the Kaldorei, but when I learned about her claim that she would have fought for the Night Elves during the War of the Thorns, I was sitting there thinking “yeah, sure you would have”.
Maybe that’s just my own cynicism about the subject speaking, but it feels fake to me. Like, they dangle in druidic content “oh, look at all of these wild gods and dragons and super cool friends that the Night Elves have”, but we all know perfectly well that they’re going to be terribly busy with doing nothing or being neutral whenever the Horde turn up at the behest of whatever genocidal maniac the writers have them stuck to this time. So, I really can’t take that content all that seriously. It doesn’t even work as a “here’s what you could have had if Ysera didn’t die” because I just don’t believe it. Although maybe that’s just me.
Not that Night Elves should have dragons as allies - I want to head that argument off at the pass. Chimaera yes, Dragons no. I just again, don’t take Ysera’s claim here all that seriously.
Here we can see that this post is coming from a place of emotion and is not grounded in facts or lore. Sure, fine.
We’ve also established that you dislike the expansion’s premise and how stuff is being presented. Got it.
Here’s where we start having issues…
And the crux.
You don’t like that ALL Horde players have the option to help out in Ardenweald. You find it “disgusting”.
You find it “disgusting” that the faction you don’t play has optional access to the same content you do. Nevermind the fact that there are lore reasons why Horde characters and RP reasons why Horde players would want to do the content.
Your reasoning? Because they (the characters and the players) haven’t earned redemption in your mind?
Two things here:
You acknowledge that not all Horde wanted the story to go the way it did.
“Some consequences” implies that Horde characters and players (remember, you rolled them all together) haven’t suffered any consequences over the course of BfA or going into Shadowlands.
So, not only are you dismissing what Horde characters and players had to go through in BfA but you also want to punish Horde players (you said they shouldn’t be allowed access to optional content) for something you yourself admitted they had no control over (the story direction).
That, to me, is disgusting.
No, it’s disappointment. You carried yourself into the forums after your absence as someone who wanted to work towards fixing the story. You’ve stated that you try to consider both factions when proposing solutions. Admittedly, you disregard some lore because you feel the average player wouldn’t get it (paraphrasing) which I understand but don’t necessarily agree with.
In one of your posts you even mention that you aren’t Elesana. I still think you are not Elesana.
That said, I’m now off the impression you are actually worse than Elesana.
It’s one thing to say “I don’t like this content.”
It’s another thing entirely to say "I don’t like this content, but the Horde shouldn’t be able to do it. "
So, not only do you want what you care about, you also want to deny a large segment of the playerbase access to it for no other reason than they rolled the opposite faction.
The curt response I originally gave your post is pretty much in line with how I respond to all NEFPA. Given your attitude towards the Horde playerbase for stuff outside their control I’m content throwing you into that category.
The first thing I will say in response to this is that if you’re unwilling to take into account how different people feel when discussing a work of fiction, or how elements can produce different feelings in people, then I’m not sure why you’re discussing any work of fiction. We are not discussing a financial statement. We’re discussing a piece of entertainment.
Regarding the rest of your post - you appear to have interpreted by continued belief that Horde players should not quest with Tyrande, as a statement that they shouldn’t be able to do Ardenweald at all. I anticipate that you’ll try to mend that error by informing me that Tyrande’s quest is a necessary part of the zone - but for Horde players, I don’t feel it should be. They should be given different content - and this is where the idea that Alliance players also shouldn’t be given the option of questing with Vol’jin makes for a nice fit.
But no, I do not want them twisting Tyrande into knots to accommodate the Horde player after BFA. Regardless of how you feel, you are representing the political entity that made the subjugation, if not extermination of her people a wartime goal. I don’t think that she should forgive you for that.
Honestly the Tyrande stuff should be the NE heritage armor quest.
Her connection to Ardenweald is pretty minimal. Whenever Elune is mentioned its pretty much exclusively in context of Tyrande. So beyond some previous night warriors (of other species) ending up there, and ysera, there’s really no reason for the plot line to be centered there.
I’m afraid I don’t agree on the idea of faction-based content. I absolutely think that there should be some exclusive content for either faction - content that deals with matters concerning their playable races, and advancing their issues. Just about every expansion has had some of this, and I don’t see why that’s too far out of left field now.
Oh, I took how you feel into account. That’s the entire point of my post.
Incorrect.
Your exact words were
This wasn’t a suggestion for improving the experience for the players on either side, it was a jab at Horde players directly.
Seriously, have you paid any attention to how Tyrande treats the Horde players? Tyrande hasn’t been able to ‘stomach’ the Horde since Wrath. Which is why she’s always talking down to us, the players.
Which the players had zero choice in, besides not playing. Yet you feel that horde players have not been punished enough or had sufficient consequences for stuff beyond their control or haven’t earned redemption in your mind.
Gantrithor, I notice that you do this thing where you snip out what you feel you want to respond to instead of addressing the overall point, I would encourage you to consider that this may lead you to miss the point.
Regarding your comment on how Tyrande treats the Horde player - yes, I’ve absolutely noticed. It was a strange way of trying to thread the needle between the concepts of “this woman feels that you have done terrible things to her people” and “but we want you to quest with her because we don’t want to write you a different quest”. My argument is that they shouldn’t be trying to thread that needle at all.
Now, I see you claiming that this is an attack on Horde players. For me, it’s more an acknowledgement that however you feel about whether Blizzard should have done this, they did. That happened. You don’t get to ignore Teldrassil any more than I do. You can’t unring the bell - there are and I feel should be narrative consequences for that action. Among them is that I don’t think Tyrande should tolerate people representing the political entity that tried to subjugate or exterminate her people.
I feel that they’d have to rewrite the entire planned covenant story if they were going to separate the Tyrande and Vol’jin stuff, unfortunately. It’d be hella awkward to leave in a plot point of Ysera having a vision of Tyrande being the key to saving all of Ardenweald before telling half of the playerbase (and it may as well be half with how many people chose that covenant) “but you won’t be involved with that, so go do some side stuff with a dead troll moron instead.”
They probably would. I’m more providing my thoughts on this more than I am presenting a complete solution. I just don’t like, given everything that’s happened and given that we have once again not addressed some of the more malignant elephants in the room concerning the Horde’s involvement in Sylvanas’s plan, the idea of Tyrande forgiving the Horde to an extent that it makes sense for her to accept their help.
I know exactly what you’re point was. You made it abundantly clear.
There have been. You ignore/dismiss them.
She doesn’t.
Horde players want to make amends by helping free night elf souls from the Maw. You want to deny them that because it involves working with your precious Tyrande.
The problem there is the ‘narrative consequence’ is just one faction gets stuck with an NPC shaming them for most of a quest chain where they are trying to help said NPC (and, you know, save reality) and the other half sails through as if everything is hunky-dory. It doesn’t acknowledge that the objective experience of the War of Thorns was very different depending on which faction you were playing at the time and whether or not your character would even want anything to do with Tyrande or not at this point.
At the same time, Alliance characters having to work with Bwonsamdi and Vol’jin to save a few Loa is also kind of ridiculous, even though that is also a largely helpful act towards the general health of Ardenweild and the continued existence of, you know, the universe. But at least they aren’t trying to shame one faction for murdering trolls in Dazar’alor or killing Loa the whole time. Do you see where the ‘narrative consequences’, in this case, are heavily weighted in favor of the Night Elves and their story arc?
It’s bad enough Blizzard wants to keep laser focused on an unpopular story beat, but the constant guilt tripping does make it worse.
I don’t like that you’re forced as Horde player to have to help her either. That’s part of why I will never choose the Ardenweild covenant, because I don’t want to have to deal with that BS. That’s coming from a huge Bwonsamdi fan too, and you only get to see him in one dungeon this expansion otherwise.
I think you can have a repeatable quest that involves saving souls, some of whom being Night Elves, where you can scratch that itch, but regarding Tyrande? Yeah - I don’t think given everything that’s happened that she or the playable race for that matter should be in the mood to forgive the Horde. That ship sailed - or perhaps more appropriately, was burnt to cinders.
@ Frankenfiend
I see your point in your second paragraph, and this is where I argue that a narrative separation is good for the Horde player as well - especially if again, I’m going to take the position that Tyrande should not be accepting the Horde player’s help. Tying this in to other commentaries - I would say that we probably will get, and should receive more faction war content - and in that content I think that it is best if both sides have strong motivations to participate in such. In such content, Tyrande would emerge as one of the Horde’s enemies, and the game should be trying to avoid complicating that motivation with further attempts at shaming.
Is that going to be difficult? Oh yes, but we needn’t make it even MORE difficult.
That’s the problem, it ia fiction and not even ours and that’s your problem as many nelfies fanboys, they can’t accept theblore and the narrative aren’t controlles by the customers not even by majority.
What are you going to do if Blizzard kills Tyrande and redeems Sylvanas with Nelfies souls cheering at her?
Keep blaming the Horde for having Sylvanas in their roster since Vanilla?
Nelves is the proof how spoiled are the alliance playerbase in general and the moment they get real defeat, they began to act as man/woman childs and throw a fit.
I can’t fathom the people still think the horde players need to be crapped on even more to satisfy their precious NE Power Myth and I noticed a trend here, those that want that? Don’t even play game and have no interest in doing so, but they still demand their power fantasy be implemented at all costs
