The obsession of some folks with ignoring lore they don’t like is irksome.
It’s not just that I don’t like it. It had the most retcons of any expansion to date. It went against crucial previously established lore pertaining to the Lich King, the Scourge, the Burning Legion - all for the sake of a newly introduced villain with the character development of a cardboard cutout.
Hardly an obsession, just something I feel should be done. I’m not alone, either.
Idk if anyone else posted this, sorry, but Arthas was still a virgin when Anduin was born.
End of story.
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I’m not saying Saurfang didn’t make sense, but they knew each other for a cup of coffee compared to the significance Arthas had to the Jailer storyline and Anduin’s situation.
Varian could’ve fulfilled the role of reminding Anduin he can be a peacemaker/his own person. Arthas would’ve been there to help him fight the same fate he suffered.
Prior to Frostmourne, yes. After he took up the cursed blade, no. His corruption enforced the worse aspects of his character, yes, but I’d hardly say he was totally in control or that pre-Frostmourne Arthas would’ve killed his own father.
That aside, Anduin wasn’t in control - the Jailer was.
As far as we know the only good part of Arthas was dead dead in Wrath though.
Arthas was more significant to the story, but why would he be helping Anduin in this situation? He was revelling in the damage he was causing, you’d basically have to rewrite him. Even if he was just mad he was being used as a weapon… that was not something he was particularly bothered by as a DK when he had Ner’zhul controlling him.
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He was never mindcontrolled and went full on bad the moment Stratholme burned.
Shadowlands greatly expanded on the larger cosmic lore I think it was superb.
He’s saying that Arthas (as a DK) did things he wouldn’t have done even after crossing the moral rubicon in Northrend. Which is a fair point.
Northrend-Human Arthas threw away his morals and scruples but did so for a mission, he wasn’t randomly just going to go home and raze the place for funzies.
Can’t exploit bad feelings that aren’t already there. Sylvanas had to be undead first before committing war crimes and her bods count only started to rise at around Cataclysm.
They detail this somewhere?
I enjoyed certain aspects of that, my issue is with The Jailer and how they tried to make him the mastermind behind everything . . . only for him to be defeated in the final patch.
That is the part I feel should be retconned. Just make his machinations limited to Sylvanas and the Shadowlands, not the Old Gods/Legion/etc.
It felt incredibly short-sighted.
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I personally hated what they did with him and Sylvanas.
He’s the master of domination magic, had her literal soul in his hands during EoN, had his minions surround her 24/7, but outside of a false vision of a hellish fate, only manipulated her with words (and potentially setting up the Stormheim incident to some extent knowing how it would end?)
I think the idea was to soften Sylvanas’ actions by giving her a greater cause she thought she was fighting for, but at no point in BFA did it ever feel like she was actually conflicted about what she was tasked to do. She only started to show any discomfort at all once Anduin was in hand. She very specifically did not seem all that concerned about her people/allies at the gates of Org.
I feel like Sylvanas actually starting to grow into the person the Legion trailer was painting her as, just for the Jailer to seize her and force her to unknowingly do something to kick off BFA could have been far better.
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No the lore books specifically say no lich king was ever under the jailers control
Zovval considered all the LKs failures. None of them was ever perfectly under his thumb, and the last two outright resisted him.
Yes, the Arthas novel is quite clear. Jaina was Arthas’ one and only intimate partner, and we know when they first took that step in their relationship. Arthas had already met infant Anduin by that time, while visiting Varian and Tiffin in Stormwind.
The rough timeline is as follows:
-Anduin is born
-Arthas visits Stormwind for the first time, meets with the royal family
-Arthas and Jaina become romantically entangled after years of friendship
Anduin is too old to be Arthas’ son, unless he is also Jaina’s son and adoption via time travel is somehow involved. The timeline doesn’t add up.
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Any quotes?
I’m just curious. The obvious solution would just be to retcon that.
All quotations from Arthas: Rise of the Lich King
Chapter Five, p. 71, setting is Stormwind, Arthas contemplating before he takes his paladin oaths:
Chapter Five, p. 72:
Chapter Six, p. 96, setting is a formal dinner in Dalaran for several VIPs, conversation between Arthas and Antonidas, Jaina and Arthas have yet to confess feelings for each other:
Chapter Seven, page 112, setting is Arthas’ quarters in the palace in Lordaeron, Jaina and Arthas in the middle of being very amorous:
Much of the book is told from Arthas’ or Jaina’s perspective, and so we also get a sense of how he thinks. The topic of queens and consorts and royal duties comes up repeatedly, and Arthas always considers it a very serious matter, especially after he sees how distraught Calia is about her own expected role in such affairs, and it causes him quite a lot of stress because he worries that he won’t be a good husband or father. On the occasion that he thinks of an actual person he might be interested in for any sort of intimacy or relationship, he only ever thinks of Jaina. Arthas is not a playboy; if anything, he gets overly attached to the point of destruction, which is a character flaw that informs much of his downfall.
There’s no way to retcon all that without making things extremely complicated and/or heavily undermining Arthas’ character, while doing nothing to add to Anduin’s. Setting aside all the timeline problems of such a premise, why would Anduin, who so very consistently judges a person’s character by their own acts and behavior above anything else, care at all if he suddenly found out Arthas was his biological father? Varian raised him and claimed him as his son, so that’s who his father is.
I don’t see any of these quotes saying he was a virgin.
I mean they could just decanonize the entire book, not very complicated. I question how many of the millions of Warcraft players have ever read it.
Why would he have doubt about anything ever? He’s a character of faith that holds one of the greatest positions of power. Because he’s a person who has on several occasions let his doubts get to him regardless of their truth.
This entire thread is weird.
People trying to claim that Anduin is Arthas’ son because reasons. I mean Garrosh compared himself to Arthas in War Crimes, does that mean Garrosh is actually Arthas’ son and not Groms?
See how stupid this whole thread sounds?
Two characters can have similar arcs without being related to each other. Why people say they must is beyond me.
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These are obviously not equivalent. Garrosh is orc from another planet. There are a lot more significant hoops to jump through.
I mean they certainly can just be similar. Agreed.
Just to be clear, I don’t think they’re related and I don’t think the thread is positing that’s the case. Just this is a story idea they could have or can explore.
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