In the Delaryn thread I noticed that there were posters using Sira as an example of how the Val’kyr forced the night elves to return in Darkshore. However this is actually false, Sira did choose to return.
Though I don’t blame them for taking that takeaway since even though Sira told Horde players that the newly resurrected night elves have their own reasons for accepting the Val’kyr’s gift. In Shadows Rising she also told Tyrande that she did not choose to return.
To directly quote form Wowpedia here:
When asked if this was a deliberate retcon, Madeleine Roux stated “’‘I’d like to rebuttal with ‘Not every character tells the truth all the time’. We’re not in Sira’s head in that moment. We don’t know what she’s thinking or why she’s saying what she’s saying. She ‘‘is’’ in a prison with a woman who is probably coming to execute her. […] People react differently in different situations. The Sira you see alone in a jail cell surrounded by enemies is not the Sira you see swaggering around in the jungle giving guff to Nathanos, right? Like, circumstances matter and context matters, so to me, in that moment […] it’s like every circumstance has to come together in that moment for [Tyrande] to not [kill Sira]. […] So that’s what I would say: people lie a lot and especially when self-preservation is potentially on the line. So yeah, and I think hopefully it’s obvious that Sira does not act the same way in that scene as she would if she was with her allies. She’s responding to context, is what I would say in that scenario.’’”
It makes a lot of sense… I looked at it as, she didn’t have “much of a choice”. But it does make sense for her to lie, considering she would be going back to the Maw if Tyrande did kill her.
I mean, this very clearly feels like an attempt to reconcile two different scenes written by two different writers who were not in agreement about the underlying facts.
Especially since literally every single depiction of the Forsaken’s approach to raising dead has hit the exact same problem, of Blizzard being constantly torn between wanting to respect the agency and will of the parties involved and wanting to mine the inherent angst of being dragged back against their will.
You could also take that position that Sira said she didn’t “choose” to return because she really had no real choice at all. Return or remain in torment. Given her options, did she really have a choice? Did any of them?
I wonder if we will meet any who chose not to return and remained in the maw, with faith in Elune that they would be saved. Maybe some of the souls we save from the maw.
yeah i agree, i think between eternal damnation vs damned to unlife is not a choice, getting hot sauce is a choice.
Now then since i hate all this debacle and think undead nelves are an aberration to this narrative i may not like whatever blizzard wants to do with them.
There but more people took Sira’s statement to Tyrande that she didn’t choose to return at face value without looking at the context of Sira being in a jail cell and a very angry Tyrande holding a sword.
I don’t know. I do know that both Nathanos and Sira were aware of the Maw, with it being unstated if any of the Banshee loyalists knew. Furthermore in contrast to Nathanos, Sira joined the Banshee Queen due to a desire for the succor of flesh and blood.
I don’t know what to make out of it. She could be liyng to the Horde to look more trustworthy. There are 2 chooses, choose to return and choose a side, Horde Sylvans, Alliance, neutral…
Unfortunately the plight of the denizens of Azeroth takes them to the doorway of the Maw and not Taco Bell.
You can either be tormented by the Jailer, and hope that someone will save you; or serve the Banshee Queen and hope for the best. If not for the Banshee Queen, there would be no choice at all. They would eventually die, and just go to the Maw anyway.
This would make sense if Madeline was a streamer or a forum poster, but she is an author commenting on her own work. She’s also a Night Elf fan, and if she had deliberately done the change, I believe she would have come out and said so.
So how do you explain the fact that once they returned they immediately started killing their own race and sending THEM to the maw instead of immediately defecting to the Alliance first chance they got?
I took it more as that when they are on the Shadowlands side, the val’kyr gave the night elves the choice to come back, and seeing as they were being tortured in super-hell, obviously accepted.
Of course, like I mentioned in the other thread and was mentioned here, val’kyr giving people a choice doesn’t make much sense at all, and they’ve never done that before or after Darkshore.
My assumption is that Blizzard initially wanted Sira and Delaryn to be talking about choosing to join the Forsaken, but out of a backlash towards the initial Darkshore PTR, added in the “willing soul” lines and the wisps to make the nelfs seem less like they rolled over into the Forsaken by force.
People were (and still are) very insistent that the val’kyr mind control the people they raise, when regardless of the resurrection itself, it’s always been mostly consistent that the val’kyr can’t mind control those they raise without the Lich King’s power. It was an easy, if not thought out, explanation to slap on without much extra voice acting or questing.
Maybe Sylvanas told then what she was planning on terms of “choosing their fate”. After what they had just been through and believing that everything they though they knew was a lie, they may have willingly followed her so that they would never have to return to the Maw again. Because, they wrapped their new lives up in Sylvanas’ purpose, it makes complete sense why they felt lost when she abandoned them.
I should also mention that I’m using some critical thinking to try and smooth out the obivious writing issues.
That would be like you have a friend in congress to pass a law where every food tastes horrible except with hot sauce, and guess who owns all the hotsauce? it doesnt count when you’re the one narrowing down the choices.
“I see a sad and defeated thing that has chosen a path,” Tyrande replied. “Nothing more.”
“I chose nothing!” Sira shrieked, and Maiev stepped forward, so close her shoulder brushed Tyrande’s. “I did not choose to return. I would never choose to return. Everything inside me is ugliness and rage, and the only thing that quiets the scream is death. For what was done to me, I will see a hundredfold done upon this cursed realm!”
However, we are all aware how what characters say in books is not definitive by Blizzard’s standards. We could have actually been in Sira’s head and reading what she was thinking and Blizzard still could have said it was a lie, after all.
They did but there is also the starting zone. Pc joins the forshaken Voss try to return to her former life and there is an npc that try to establish his own faction. There is also the headshot. The pc becomes “champion” after proving his loyality a lot of times. If there istnt any kind of control seasoning domination or something the loyality of the risen nelfs should be an issue for the Horde.