Simple, elegant solution to (slightly) buff Frost DKs

So, everyone seems to be aware that Frost DK has several issues, and it occurred to me that the most obvious answer is the best one. The class’s main problems:

1) One of the key powers, Killing Machine, relies on crits. However, Critical Strike scales poorly with the rest of the class.

2) Single target damage is lackluster when that is the only thing that distinguished it from Unholy DKs in the past. This is especially true outside of the Pillar of Frost window.

3) The default way to dump runic power, Frost Strike, feels bad to use. Outside of Obliteration or Breath of Sindragosa, you are fishing for more runes with it, but success grants you an Obliterate that usually doesn’t have Killing Machine (which does 3-4x less damage as a result). Glacial Advance not only deviates from the best burst window talent (Gathering Storm), it also scales with haste, exacerbating Problem 1. When dumping RP in PvE, Death Strike realistically is only used as a bandaid when Lichborne or Sacrificial Pact aren’t available.

4) Currently, Frost DK mainly scales with one stat(Mastery), so it will sink from the average performing class to the bottom of the DPS as people get more geared. This is especially true with the diminishing returns on secondary stats.

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My proposed solution: Let Frost Strike criticals proc Killing Machines the same way that autoattacks do.
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How does Killing Machine work now?

You have a scaling chance of getting a proc on an autoattack. For 2h, it is a 70% and 100% (85% over 2 attacks on average). For dual wielders, it is 30%, 60%, 90%, and 100% (70% over 4 attacks on average). With 100% crit, this would be a KM proc every 8.47s(2H) or 7.43s(DW), or a ppm of 7.08(2H) / 8.07(DW). This assumes a 2H with 3.60 speed or two 1Hers with 2.6 speed; though there may be alternate options, this is likely a common amount. A realistically achievable value is 20-25% crit, which would give you 1.41-1.77 ppm(2h) and 1.61-2.01 ppm(DW) . Critical strike does not scale well because you barely notice the difference between the baseline and stacking it, even in the ability that relies on it.

The other place where Killing Machine would activate is inside of a Pillar of Frost window with Obliteration. You would prime the pump with Frost Strike or Howling Blast(Rime), alternating the priming ability with Obliterate (which consumes the KM). In a 12 second window, this realistically means 4 Killing Machine procs per minute. So, in total, depending on build, 4-6 Killing Machines per minute is the current meta (I’m personally at 4.7 KMs per minute in low gear and ~10% crit).

So, what happens when Frost Strike criticals count as well?

Outside of the Obliteration window, an optimal player can get about 9 Frost Strikes in a minute (18 when dual wielding) if no resources are going to waste (11-12 2H or 22-24 DW with unbuffed Empower Rune Weapon). This would bring the base ppm from 7.08 to 14.73 with 2H (85% average chance, remember?). With DW, it would be brought up from 8.07 to 14.37 (70% chance). In effect, Empower Rune Weapon would provide and extra 2.55 to 2Hers and 2.1 to dual wielders. This base ppm is the amount that would be multiplied by your Critical Strike percentage to determine what your real ppm is. Here is a table representing the real PPMs at various crit values. Most people won’t push much past 25% crit due to gear limitations. All of these values at each critical amount combine/stack.

KMs per minute
*
Crit,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,30%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.25%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.20%
Autoatks (2H/DW),.,.,.,.,.,.2.13/2.42,.,1.77/2.02,.,.,.,.,.1.42/1.62
Obliteration,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.4,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.4,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,4
New FS suggestion,.,.,.,.,.2.3/3.78,.,.,1.91/3.15,.,.,.,.,1.53/2.52

As can be seen, the proposed change provides a noticeable increase in the number of Killing Machines over the existing amount, but not so much they overwhelm the rotation. When looked at in the context of Obliteration, it takes getting around 28% crit to get the same amount of KMs in your 48 seconds of cooldown time as in your 12 second, Obliteration-empowered Pillar of Frost window.

Various Increases due to Frost Strike Killing Machine

Crit,.,.,DPS(2h),.,DPS(DW),.,.total KM proc increase(including Obliteration)
30%,.,.6.02%,.,.,.,.5.02%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.37-58%
25%,.,.5.32%,.,.,.,.4.46%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.33-52%
20%,.,.4.54%,.,.,.,.3.82%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.28-44%
15%,.,.3.64%,.,.,.,.3.10%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.22-36%
10%,.,.2.61%,.,.,.,.2.24%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.16-26%
5%,.,.,.1.41%,.,.,.,.1.22%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.8-14%

The higher proc increase rate is for dual wielding. This chart makes a few assumptions on current Obliterate damage as a certain portion of the total damage. I based these values on sims that I ran, but it seems to match raid parses. Those assumptions are below.

Oblit dmg% of total DPS,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.Obliterate Button Presses
,.,.,.,.,.,KM,.,.,.,.,.,Regular,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.KM,.,.,.,.,.,Regular
2H,.,.20.3%,.,.,.,.,.,9.4%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.31.07%,.,.,.68.93%
DW,.,.12%,.,.,.,.,.,.,6.1%,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.36.30%,.,.,.63.70%

The result is a modest buff to Frost DK that makes 2h actually feel distinct from DW while not invalidating Breath of Sindragosa for those who prefer that. Even the extreme (likely unreachable for now) value of 6.02% translates to 180.6 DPS if you are at 3000 DPS, so it will not affect the charts enough to dislodge play at the median level. Since roughly 3/5s of your Oblits are still uncritted, this is more of just a change to play quality (while DW technically gets 30% more KMs, 2H does 30% more dmg with each one). It weights Frost Strike slightly in favor of Obliterate, which makes sense for single target. It gives more value to crit and Frost Strike at the same time by letting the player have more control of KM procs. It will help crit scale with gear on DKs in a way that will be noticed, but not mandatory. This change does not significantly affect AoE rotation, since it only creates interplay between Frost Strike and Killing Machine. I’m not an expert on Frostscythe, but from what I can tell it is only worth using on 3+ targets with KM up, which is still infrequent. This change won’t make Frostscythe superior, but maybe it’ll have a niche use again.

Finally, and most importantly, the Killing Machine proc mechanic is already in place for autoattacks. Allowing Frost Strike to add to the Killing Machine counter would be simple from a programmer perspective.

What if we let regular Frost strikes (not criticals) proc Killing Machines?

In short, that would break the rotation. In addition to making the secondary stat crit meaningless, adding 7.65 extra KMs per minute vastly outweighs even the Obliteration talent kill window’s 4 KM uses. Let’s be real, nobody is expecting to play a Frost DK and get a KM proc every 5 seconds all the time.

How does this not buff the Breath of Sindragosa Build? They Obliterate a lot during that.

Stacking crit is not suggested for a Breath build, as crit does not contribute to maintaining Breath. If you are stacking haste, ignoring mastery in favor of crit on a Breath build is likely a DPS loss, even with this change.

What else can be done in this line of thinking to make Frost DK more enjoyable to play?

You could give something like Frost Strike having double the chance to crit; that was something that Fury Warrior’s Bloodthirst had back in earlier Pandaria, but currently no other class has it. Such an ability would amplify this suggestion if further tuning upward was needed.

You could also have damage increased under Killing Machine by an amount equal to your critical strike chance, like Destro Lock has with Chaos Bolt. I don’t like taking abilities from other classes, though.

A third option is having Frost Fever ticks have a chance (equal to your critical strike chance) to trigger Killing Machine (on a 10 second internal cooldown). This would normalize the number of Killing Machine procs between DW and 2H, making it easier to tune down the buffs 2H gets from Might of the Frozen Wastes.

EDIT: Formatting and new further suggestions. The number of Frost Strike hits was not factored correctly for dual wielding and is now fixed. Added in a Frost Fever suggestion inspired by Kelliste’s input.

36 Likes

i have a big ape brain, but this sounds great! thanks for using maths to support your suggestions! i think this would make the gameplay much more enjoyable for the entire class. i genuinely love this and the reasoning behind it!

3 Likes

Well this is one way to help Frost’s current state. Frost Strike does feel kinda sh1tty to press.

With this, Eradicating Blows would also help too!

6 Likes

yep, this would make frost strike feel better to press, and if the math works out, should help fix some gameplay and balance issues too. seems very well thought out! some other stuff should happen too imo, but this would help a lot.

3 Likes

love it! good work!
you suggestion is realistic and feasible. i can only hope that the devs will read it too.

4 Likes

I actually like where your head is at with this. I truly was excited for 2h frost, and ive stayed it in game for as long as i can stand. But its missing alot, DMG wise and not even touching on the Elephant in the room " our atrocious defense ".

I would love to see some type of change so that it FEELS like frost is the monster it used to be, instead of feeling like im made of rice paper hitting someone with a balsa wood weapon…

1 Like

Although i like the idea, i’d say if you’re going to buff a class so low in dps charts there’s no reason to do it so lightly. (And do so for every other spec in the same situation, without making everything the same huge disparities aren’t good)
There’s a conduit that makes obliterate buff your next frost strike by X stacking twice, i think a conduit/talent/passive making FS buffing oblit’s phys dmg by X stacking X number of times could also be cool.

5 Likes

If Blizzard wanted to significantly buff Frost DK, they already have the means to do so. In fact, all they would have to do is revert previous changes they made on Oct 9.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=318450/patch-9-0-1-ptr-class-change-hotfixes-for-october-9th-frost-dk-nerfed-feral-drui

Listed nerfs

Might of the Frozen Wastes
35% to 30% Oblit increase for 2h, a 14.2% damage nerf.

Obliterate
2H damage: 73.55% to 66.2% of Atk Pwr, a 10% damage nerf.
DW damage 49.7%+49.7% to 44.73%+44.73% atk power, a 10% damage nerf

Pillar of Frost
15s duration to 12s duration (20% duration nerf)
45s to 1m cd(33% cd nerf)

Even if they left Pillar of Frost alone, reverting the Obliterate and Might of the Frozen Wastes change here would improve 2H Oblit DPS by 7.76% and DW Breath DPS by 3.28%, which is a bigger buff than I am suggesting. If this increase is too much for Blizzard to give us back, my idea provides a more modest option.
Edit: fixed maths

8 Likes

Honestly

These nerfs are dumb and are there to bring Frost Dk down.

Idk why they changed Frost that drastically.

10 Likes

You’re 100% right about PoF.

However even if they revert the nerfs on oblit it still is a stale ability ouside of KM2 procs which has as im sure you know been an unadressed problem since forever.
Any straight dmg buffs which they constantly do are only temporary band-aids that fade away in relevance as content progresses.

1 Like

Everytime I see these patchnotes it hurts.

2 Likes

Well, that’s why I had the idea to let FS crits contribute to KM procs. It gives the player more control over KM procs, scales with crit (and thus inherently improves as content progresses), and allows a few less dead spots in the rotation (my sims show about 13.3% of the time is totally dead autoattacking, which feels bad)

3 Likes

Right, i suppose a stale oblit becomes less relevant the more KM2 we get.
Well then i wholeheartedly support your idea, along ofc with reverting the nerfs.
One can always dream.

1 Like

Are you splitting the frost strike for DW because its actually 2 separate hits which each have their own crit chance. You can get a full crit, main hand crit, off hand crit or no crit. So would this mean you have to get a full crit or just a crit in any form for DW to get a KM proc from Frost Strike crits?

And how would the normal Frost strikes work for DW in terms of KM procs? Again, its 2 separate hits each with its own rolls, at least for crit. So if say it has a 20% chance to proc is it just per use or per strike. If its per strike then thats a 20% chance for each weapon.

This is where the mechanics of DW are just superior and have to be factored in. So instead of getting 9 Frost Strikes per minute, DW could actually function as 18 Frost Strikes per minute through main hand hit and off hand hit.

2 Likes

I had completely overlooked FS hitting twice with DW, but even with that change 2H would be superior with this change (just by a lesser amount). For example, at the 25% value 2H is at 5.32%. DW should be at 4.46%. I’m going to edit that in now.

Killing Machine already has a mechanic for crits. For DW, it’s 30%/60%/90%/100%, and for 2H it’s 70%/100%. This means you will get a crit within 4 DW FS crits (4 in total with each hand counting as a separate crit), just like how autoattack crits work now.

This means that with a 25% critical rating, you will get a KM proc by your 8th press of the FS button, regardless of if you are 2H or DW. I’m not trying to make a new proc system, just get Frost Strike to benefit from what autoattack already does.

Edit: Clarity

6 Likes

Has the FDK community tried going Crit=Haste>vers>mastery?

With Unholys legendary, Deaths Certainty, and Bloods runeforge, sanguination, and removing frost strike from your bar completely?

I honestly might try it today.
A rp spender that hits would be a much needed boon rn.

Oh it hits.
Using it as Blood, getting 7-14k death strike crits depending on the sanguination scaling.

Yep. Feels like they were overcompensating for no reason.

4 Likes

Supposedly during Beta, Obliterate was like 70% of a 2h Frost’s damage. So they nerfed the ever loving **** out of Obliterate and PoF and then sprinkled a MotFW nerf on top of it.

So now Oblit isn’t 70% of our damage, but they gave literally 0 compensation anywhere else and the spec is hurting badly as a whole. Our best spec is still over 10% behind top performers and 2h Frost is something like another 10% behind that which puts 2h Frost at quite literally the very bottom of all dps specs by a significant margin. (I’m just looking at high parses under the logical assumption that anyone parsing high is going to be running our highest outputting spec)

The end result is that all possible sub-specs of Frost do sub-par ST damage, AoE is straight up pathetic outside of BoS Burst windows (and BoS isnt even viable for 2h) and channeled Cleave is our best ST talent…which is still so far behind that a Frost cannot compete at all for top spots in a raid setting with competent dps raid members. You straight up won’t even manage to average top 3 across all fights unless the other players are absolute garbage or you massively outgear them by 30+ilvls.

And what does Frost get in return? Nothing Unholy or Blood doesn’t have. So theres absolutely no reason to bring a Frost DK. They bring absolutely nothing to the table that the far superior Unholy couldn’t bring. Even if Unholy had no utility, they do fantastic damage in pretty much every scenario. The only weakness for Unholy is switching to a small number of adds rapidly that need to be bursted down.

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