Hey all, been getting my rogue alt up to KSM and in checking out all the top rated rogues, I see that shuriken tornado is bis.
Every time I take it, I feel energy starved as hell and feel gimp on bosses… I don’t even do nearly as well on trash. I fully recognize that I need to get used to the playstyle and get better on it, but is it also that this is more popular in high keys?
I’m struggling to see why my damage is suffering so badly in m+ when i switch to the BiS talent. If it’s just a PEBCAK thing and I need to get more reps in, I can respect that, but are any rogues that are in the 15-17 key range right now seeing infinitely better results using it?
Thanks for the help all!
Tornado is for when you Wade into a large group of mobs.
It allows you to get 4 Black Powders off back to back in just 4 (5 if you count activating ST) globals. And it’s available walking into every pull.
Line it up with Symbols, Shuriken Tornado is a guaranteed Crit, and now every mobs has Find Weakness on them allowing for those Black Powders to deal 40% additional damage as Shadow.
Sub is a fairly easy and straight forward spec to play and to play well. It’s just got a lot of little nuances that make a person go from being a good rogue to a great Rogue
Oh, I absolutely understand its intent and I multiple times mentioned it will take some getting used to, but was just wondering if it was something that got more value in high (20+) keys that I’ll not be doing unless I main swap/focus more on M+.
If it’s leaps and bounds better no matter the difficulty level, I’ll force myself to get better with it.
Raidbots sims it ~400 dps higher in dungeon slice and if that’s the case and I by far outperform with master of shadows and enjoy the flow better, I’ll probably just stick to MoS.
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MoS is great for ST. Tornado is best for any AoE situation…which is 90% of m+
I understanding a preferred style over another though.
But I would definitely get used to Tornado if you can. It’s 6 combo points every second for 4 seconds, and with how Relentless Strikes work, you’re pretty much walking out of it with full energy to continue killing things. So no energy starvation issues there
Yeah totally agreed, I guess the energy starvation feelings come when not having MoS for boss fights and most of the time tornado feels like a dead talent there…
The comp of my group is almost always people playing AoE heavy specs with no one that can really just lay into a boss and even if I get less overall on a run out of STornado I feel like I’m getting more effective damage for the key by being able to pump the boss, especially in Tyr weeks.
I’m probably overanalyzing it since were mainly just selling 15s and not pushing anything crazy but I’m a min/max slave so it still feelsbad.
Higher overall = faster run, regardless of where you’re pumping. If you can pull higher overall damage by focusing on ST, then do that. But if you get higher numbers focusing more on AoE (which you will), then that’s what you should run.
It’s like me. I kill it in ST, but I take Primal Wrath (AoE) over Brutal Slash (ST) because PW puts up waaaaay better numbers over the course of the entire dungeon as opposed to Brutal Slash, although Brutal Slash would help jump my ST even more.
I mean I don’t necessarily agree with that-- funneling as sub on prio caster targets etc nets less overall while still making the run safer and faster. Additionally, 3 aoe heavy specs that take forever on a tyrannical boss is also slowing the run down even if the spec nets higher overall at the end.
Nope. Tornado still allows you to funnel, and very efficiently since you’re getting 4 Eviscerates in half the GCDs allowing for very good funneling and still maintaining a higher overall.
Nope again 
higher overall means faster run, even if it takes a little longer on bosses. And Sub is one of those great ST specs even if talented for AoE
I mean you can say nope, but tornado isn’t allowing funneling efficiently in single target.
I welcome you to go check out infexiousgaming’s sub rogue guides, specifically around how funneling lowers dungeon overall but is better for the actual run for your group and makes the run go faster.
If you’re actually trying to help and not just be contrarian, work on that EQ with putting nope’s and smiley faces in your text my guy.
There is no funneling in single target is the issue. That’s not what funneling is. Funneling is taking the increased resource gained from AoE (Shuriken Storm/Tornado) giving you full combo points in a single GCD and using it on a ST finisher which will do more damage to that priority target than it would take from an AoE finisher.
Like on my Druid, all my AoE Rips allow for free procs of Ferocious Bite (by far my highest damage ability). So by spread AoE, I’m allowed to funnel high damage into single target.
That’s funneling. You don’t use Tornado in ST scenarios.
Truth of the matter is, in an AoE scenario, using Shuriken Tornado to funnel into a priority targets saves you 80 energy per pull. Master of Shadows grants you 50 energy (usually only 2 Dances needed per pull, or even if we go with 3, 75).
And you deal that damage in 3-4 fewer GCD. In M+, Tornado is superior.
I was referring to the group as a whole, not just you as one person. I can understand how 1 person funneling on priority targets would be more efficient.
But a groups higher overall damage = faster run.
A group doing 15k overall will complete a run faster than a group doing 12k overall.
In short: Tornado = best option for M+ as it allows for increased AoE and increased priority damage. And the amount you make up with Tornado and trash pulls (or in some bosses like Echelon in HoA) makes up for the loss on ST boss fights.
Nado is best for every single situation in M+ currently, and is totally fine in ST so long as you have 4 set. Energy issues get a lot better with 4pc, and if you’re still struggling you should be pooling energy before you dance in ST.
You are doing something very wrong as well if you’re not performing better on trash with nado, because flag+dance+symbols+nado is big aoe/funnel dmg. Hell, it’s actually great burst on ST too because you can get full combo points with 1 gcd.
I think you just need more practice with it.
Try Dance + Symbols + Flag + Nado in that order. The automatic Crit from Symbols doesn’t get eaten by Flag, so you get a crit on Flag and also a Crit on Nado