Should we have Skinwalkers in WoW?

Okay, there are two points that need to be addressed here:

1 - Brazil is a humongous country with people from all over the world, and we are naughty, so we all mingle. Pretty much everybody here is some degree of mixed. Though it would be difficult to verify, I am told I have portuguese, german, african, middle eastern and native brazilian ancestors. My half sister is half japanese. So it’s honestly hard to define where our “cultural dibs” start and where they end.

2 - We don’t gatekeep anything, we just don’t want to be mocked or disrespected. I personally love that Booty Bay is based on Rio the Janeiro.

If Brazil is this:

Who is the “we” here:

Except those who live in, or were born in Brazil.

I’m having a hard time reconciling “we are a super diverse, non-homogenous group” with “don’t mock those things we have in common”.

I just have a problem with saying things like “my culture” or “we” as Brazilians. I don’t think that way, I’m pretty sure at least. I am American, but I feel nothing when people mock American culture. I’m religious, but I don’t care if people mock my religion. I am bothered when I’m personally mocked though. I don’t feel I have a right to protect the stereotypes of whatever groups I happen to belong do.

I’m a dad, but jokes about dads are still funny to me. And honestly, my ethnic background is about the least important, least interesting thing about me. I feel that way generally with those I meet.

Obviously there are different people here, and some of them might even be fine with being mocked or disrespected. They may even love the Simpsons episodes that show Brazil as a place of horrible jungle cities infested with monkeys.

But in general, that’s not the case. There’s a reason why BR TV stations didn’t air those episodes. They disrespected us. They mocked us. They would have caused uproar.

This is where we part ways. I don’t feel an “us” when it comes to my country of origin. America is the butt of many jokes. I could not care less. Mock away. I’m aware of my country’s issues. I’m also confident it’s a place many want to live. Some silly simpson episodes wouldn’t raise my blood pressure an iota and I’d be mad if it were banned because people clutched their pearls.

2 Likes

Well, you’ve said that you always look at the individual, right?

Some individuals may be more… “individualistic”, for lack of a better word, while some individuals may feel more closely connected to their people, their heritage, their collective pride.

That is also part of diversity.

Okay, do you want articles talking about the impact of how the representation of various Native American cultures can impact them? Do they need to have an interview with at least one Native American to justify their stance?

And please note, I’m not saying articles on how it can negatively impact them, there are ways that representation can positively impact them, I’m talking both sides of the coin, the bad, but also the good.

100% I don’t dispute that people hold these beliefs. I dispute whether that is a valid or worthwhile way to think.

People have to right to hold many ill-informed beliefs like get offended when their perception of their culture is perceived to have been slighted. By all means. I just don’t care all that much. Others do, that’s fine.
I also think taking pride in something you didn’t help accomplish is a weird take. It’s like when sports fans actually think they accomplished something when their team wins. It’s usually a proxy for those who haven’t accomplished much on their own.

I have a philosophy background and absolutely reject moral, ethical, and epistemic relativism.

Well, than that’s that.

We have irreconcilable views on the matter.

No matter what we say next, you will think I’m wrong and you’re right, and I’ll think you’re wrong and I’m right.

I think this discussion was a worthwhile exchange of ideas, but I also think there’s nothing new to be said that won’t just be us arguing in circles about the same things over and over again.

Best to stop here :smiley:

1 Like

No. I am Native America. I grew up surrounded by Native Americans in an area that is nearly all Tribal land. I live just near tribal land now. You can show me articles that quantify that Native Americans were impacted by representations of their culture and that doesn’t address my core point…it shouldn’t impact them.

I don’t dispute that people feel these ways about their cultures. I dispute whether that’s a good way to think. I think it’s not. I am a collection of so many identity points that to refer to me as a Cherokee barely scratches the surface. When you combine all my identity characteristics you arrive at one conclusion: I am a unique individual like everybody else. I am no more protective over being Native than I am of being left-handed or having black hair.

And back to OP: I think brainstorming about something like Skinwalkers in wow is a good practice. Unless your intent is to offend you should carry on. There will always be those that cry foul, but I would ignore them unless you chose not to.

Honestly,I would rather believe in the stories of people who have lived thousand of years on a land than a strange wishing to venture an unknown land with hidden dangers regardless of culture.

And yet y’all make a mockery out of pizza! :bangbang:

(I jest of course)

2 Likes

This is an important thing to keep in mind, many Western cultures focus on the individual, but for Eastern cultures it’s not uncommon for them to focus on the group, the community as a whole. And while an individualism culture or a collectivism culture doesn’t necessarily define how you view these things, it is going to influence it heavily.

Is everyone from an individualism based culture going to be self-serving and value themself over a group with a shared goal (i.e. a business)? No. Just as someone from a collectivism based culture will not always do things to benefit the group rather than themselves. These things influence us and our perceptions, but they’re not a cookie-cutter manual we’re following.

You do realize that the impact isn’t necessarily a Native American seeing the representation and seeing problems with it due to inaccuracies or anything of that sort. The impact can be others seeing these things and acting in bad faith towards Native Americans. People like to use whatever they can to try to justify treating others poorly, and it doesn’t matter how much you care about the individual because there are plenty who will treat them as a monolith because that makes it easier to distance themselves emotionally and not have to confront the fact they’re acting terribly to other human being based on their background.

Viewing the individual is important, but that doesn’t mean everyone does. You may have no intentions to offend or do things that are harmful, but as the dead horse we’ve beaten reminds us: we’re individuals, what you think or do is what you think and do, not what everyone thinks or will do.

I agree. Thanks for being civil and not doing any of the forum norms: ad hominem, hyperbole, straw man.

I always enjoy a good conversation.
/cheers.

1 Like

I told my girlfriend this during freshmen year when she was upset I wouldn’t sell her capetown while we were playing drunk monopoly.

We are no longer together

2 Likes

So the problem isn’t the representation, but instead people being idiots and bigots? I agree those things are problems. I also think idiots and bigots will use nearly anything to justify their conduct. I don’t want to blame the tool they use though.

You made a good point earlier though, I fully concede that I may be firmly captured by a Western, individualistic mindset. I don’t begrudge those who aren’t so-captured. But man, this thread was about Warcraft using a Native American theme. My whole life has been amongst those two groups so I felt comfortable using the norms of individualism I’ve experience in those groups.

I didn’t mean this as a slight to eastern collectivism. I just didn’t realize they had a seat at the table so to speak.

Yet,you did,but normally we will accept it and leave it.These beliefs are no different in the east than the west.These entities exist as a myth wither made up to scare children to pay attention to there surrounding ,or to keep them in order due to moral of society.

We do they are called druids.

Throws pineapple on pizza

1 Like

No, the way things are represented does matter. Whether you like it or not, whether you think so or not, everything you see influences you. It can give negative and positive views for certain things. If you only see a certain group of people having only negative representation, regardless if you realize they’re individuals, you’re going to associate negative traits with people of those backgrounds. People who have a negative view of a particular group of people may not be explicitly yelling, or being violent, but that doesn’t mean people aren’t going to be effected by biases instilled in them from media when talking to, interacting, and considering people of that group.

To put it on an individual level, let’s say you have a friend who has a person they work with that they do not like. You’ve never met this person, but from what you hear about them from your friend, they seem to have a really bad attitude. You’ve never heard anything good about them. You realize that your friend clearly has a negative view of them, but you could meet this person and go in with the expectation of a negative experience, because all you know about them is negative things. But you might realize that they’re nothing like how your friend has portrayed them, does that make your friend a liar? No, their experience is still there, but it doesn’t mean that they’re being dubious and trying to trick you into thinking they’re not a bad person. They’re just someone who doesn’t get along with someone else that you happen to know. Thoughts are easily influenced and while there are people who can easily identify these influences and try to disregard them, it’s not something everyone does.

Yes, but why make it easier for them to justify it by representing a group only or mostly in a bad light? Every group is gonna have good and bad people, but why should we choose certain groups to be portrayed as ‘bad,’ when we can just portray people as bad. Like you mentioned with filling in the blank earlier, media likes to do that with “this person is bad because of [one singular trait], while this person is good because of [an opposing trait to the bad person’s trait].” Of course not every piece of media is like that, but a lot of media does tend to have a strict dichotomy of good and bad.

Hell, I remember years ago Markiplier talking about how he wanted to get into acting and talking about how he needed to redye his hair to a more natural color as characters with dyed hair tend to have a narrow set of traits that aren’t necessarily ‘good’ traits, and that’s not the type of role he wanted. I forget the exact words he used, but it showed that even physical attributes such as hair have their own sort of stereotypes within media. We even see this today with actual people, when someone wants to talk about “woke” people, they often act like they have dyed hair (I think specifically blue for some reason), have piercings, tattoos, and other ‘non-traditional’ ways that that person has decided to express themselves.

And I’m not trying to dismiss your life experiences, I don’t doubt that there are Navajo people don’t care about non-Navajo people talking about and using skinwalkers in media. But just because something is being represented doesn’t mean it’s being done with respect, and some of us want to be considerate to those who may find it disrespectful and harmful to how outsiders perceive them.

This way of thinking only works if you give credence to treating individuals based on perceived characteristics of whatever group you think they belong to. It’s also low resolution thinking because every individual belongs to numerous groups simultaneously. Are you going base your ideas on their height, attractiveness, intelligence, wealth, religion, martial status, physical limitations, partner preferences, political leanings, etc. If you just remain neutral, realize group stereotypes are silly when applied to an individual level, and evaluate the individual based on their own characteristics none of this matters. Sure, some people might treat Guatemalans a certain way because of some stuff they’ve heard. I don’t deny people do that, I deny that they SHOULD do that.

To your individual example. The only problem occurs when I put too much stock in another’s perception of an individual. I used to do that too and admittedly I’ll use that information in the absence of any firsthand data. The real issue is if I continue to believe my friend’s assessment when my own interactions contradict it. Thomas Sowell has good work on this with his concepts of type 1 and 2 discrimination (I believe those were the terms)

No one proposed treating skinwalkers with intentional disrespect. I agree that being intentionally nasty is bad, but we were only talking about whether you need permission to do it or not. Of course it’s morally wrong to be deliberately negative. It’s wrong and dishonest.

In essence you are making logical arguments based on a foundation I reject. I deny the utility of treating individuals based on any group identity. I deny that people can own ideas or their culture. I deny that another person’s feeling should inevitably guide my conduct, especially if their feelings are felt in error. It’s possible that I could do something that offends another and the answer is that they shouldn’t be offended. Not always, but sometimes.

I’ve never befriended the Navajo tribe or been hurt by it. You can’t interact with a group identity, it’s a concept. I’ve only had friends who happen to be Navajo amongst many other awesome things. And I must say their tribal status was always the least interesting thing about them. The people I’ve encountered that got all up in arms about their tribal identity often did so because they weren’t happy with themselves as an individual. And they had no more right to control their Navajo culture than they do the ideas surrounding fatherhood, their profession, Americans, or any other group they belong to.

*this may contain many typos. It was typed on a phone while multi-tasking