Should we give Talent Swapping a cooldown as well?

I think it’s fine as is since it keeps inscription relevant…ish. I doubt we’ll ever go back to the hard RPG fantasy of getting folks to commit to the certain spec/talent option. Talent trees kind of required a bit of a commitment…ish.

Though even in BC/WotLK, for certain fights you would have folks hearth out, respec and get summoned back all the time between boss fights. :woman_shrugging:

The game evolved.

Devolved**

Well opinions vary and all that. MoP was peak systems and wish they had stuck to that route. Pass that, yeah I would agree that they went a bad route with the game.

I think they’ve been floundering post-WotLK. The franchise left them with a very clear roadmap, narratively, until that point.

Honestly? Yeah I think that anything which you are expected to swap out on a whim is something that should probably be addressed to make it so you can’t, at least not right away. The cooldown can be relatively short (30 minutes or something) but long enough that you don’t want to wait for it because some website tells you that you “need” to use X talent in Y encounter.

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Swapping specs is a necessary thing, though (although maybe not for a mage). Otherwise hybrids won’t have role flexibility when building pugs. “This group needs a tank but I’m stuck in Holy until tomorrow” wouldn’t be good.

I would be OK with some of the within-spec choices being stickier than they presently are and people just being expected to use the tools they have, but I think a lot of other people wouldn’t be - just look at all the complaints about Azerite respeccing.

If Blizzard had designed the talent system with a substantial CD when they rebuilt it in MoP we’d all be used to it by now. Even 1h would be enough to curb the most degenerate/immersion-destroying behaviors without stopping people from having a M+ build and a PVP build or w/e.

P.S. I don’t think trees vs. rows matters to this issue. Trees that you can swap in any rested area would just lead right back to where we are now, but with more clicking per respec.

IMO it would feel awful to “need” a particular talent to the extent that you couldn’t beat that boss with a different talent. And being able to swap to it immediately doesn’t really fix this, it’s a band-aid at best.

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Except that you don’t ‘need’ the particular talent to beat the boss. People just get their panties in a twist because things aren’t ‘optimal’ in every situation. You can kill things just fine with different talents.

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What “pressure”?

Tons of people just pick whatever they like and clear their preferred content that way.

A lot of the players that switch between boss fights are the ones that WANT to switch and be the best they can for their team.

If you’re feeling “pressured” you’re playing with the wrong people, in the wrong content type.

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Again, pressure need not be external.

Once you’re comfortable with a class, you know precisely when another talent choice would be more optimal. Once you are aware of this, you are making the deliberate choice to be suboptimal if you aren’t actively swapping, given the ease of doing so.

The developers overtly state that they expect people to swap freely and often. Thus, content is designed with that expectation in mind. Thus increasing the pressure to swap regularly. Thus negating talents as “choices” at all.

If the desire to change comes internally - then it’s a matter of choice for the player.

Which many players don’t even bother with. At a certain level and time in an expac - being “optimal” no longer matters. It’s really only a thing for “cutting edge”/AotC progression at the very beginning of an expansion.

The choice to choose talents also goes beyond personal performance. It can be a matter of suiting a need of the group, experimenting, or just having fun.

That’s not pressure, it’s decision making.

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How is it a decision when the design dictates the expected utilization?

I suppose this all goes back to the debate over whether or not a choice to be suboptimal is truly a choice.

You don’t have to do everything you’re expected to. But that sometimes means you won’t be doing things as effectively as others. (It can also mean you’ll be more effective)

Of course it is. The whole focus of this meaningful choice issue in SL is forcing people to choose what to be suboptimal in.

That’s rather cynical.

Disagree. It’s their intent to force that choice to try and reduce the requirements for meta setups.

I don’t think it’ll work, but it is the intended function.

Restrictions aren’t necessarily a bad thing. You’re framing is cynical rather than the actual point you’re making.

But I do agree with you, to a point - the way talents are set up, you are choosing what to be suboptimal at during an activity. It’s more akin to chopping out select pieces of your class’ kit than actually specializing in one aspect of it, given how binary some of the choices are (do competitive AoE or not, have a stun or not, etc.).

IMO, we have enough of them with race/class/spec. And this moves into the level of too many restrictions.

As someone who is fairly cynical, my previous statement seems rather neutral. You have to make a choice.

Allow me to reframe the discussion, then, since we’re quibbling over semantics at this point: Is the current talent system a good system? Or is it the remnants of a system that used to be required and should be rethought?

Wait, I thought we were talking about covenants… Maybe I’m in too many threads lol

But talents, yes they could be better.