Looking at the balance between the two talents (Demonic vs. Demonic Origins), the only way Demonic seems balanced as is would be if the player lost their agency over Metamorphosis entirely.
Demonic Origins is 20 seconds of demon form every three minutes, no other talents considered while Demonic being based on Eye Beam results in ~30 seconds of demon form in the same time frame.
Should choosing Demonic prevent the player from using Meta (nerf yuck!!), or does the power of Demonic Origins need to be further increased with the cooldown also subject to the player’s Haste (PI please!!?) and perhaps a boost to Mastery while active?
I think so.
But I also think Meta should be a stronger CD if not taking Demonic to balance it out. I think there could be some interesting play space where Demonic Origins doesn’t reduce duration so you would effectively get more Meta time over an “average” raid fight (by a huge margin), but demonic would give you more over an “average” dungeon run.
I would also like to see, if you did take Demonic Origins, you could drop eye beam talents in favor of some other talents.
Or, just, you know.
You can delete this idiotic pvp talent and replace it with something like - your meta now gains + 15% dmg and 15% crit dmg for the duration and for the first 15 seconds your chance to proc second annihilation / rage proc gains +20% and your sweep costs -20rage AND it gains 3% dmg for each target hit.
But, yeah, you need at least toddler brains to make new talents.
I floated this idea on another thread, gonna leave it here too.
They can change Demonic to grant Chaos Blades, and not grant the Demon form, thus decoupling them. Then you can buff Meta to also include the Chaos Blades effect, which would make it a stronger damage cooldown.
the uptimes you end up over the course of a 240 second fight would be:
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With Demonic - 8x6 seconds of Chaos Blades (8 eyebeams each granting 6 seconds of Chaos Blades) + 6 sec of Chaos Blades (from chaotic transformation) + 6-12 sec of Chaos Blades if you go Cycle of Hatred and can fit 1 or 2 more Eye Beams in the 240 sec window + 30 sec of Chaos Blades from Meta, and 30 seconds of the current Meta effects. So around 78 seconds of Chaos Blades, before other talents + 30 seconds of current Meta effects.
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With Demonic Origins. Say it lowers Meta CD to 120 seconds, and duration by 5 seconds to 25. In 240 seconds, it’s 50 seconds of Chaos Blades + 50 Seconds of current Meta effects, before Shattered Destiny.
So Demonic would end up with higher uptime on Chaos Blades, while Demonic Origins would end up with a higher uptime on the current Meta effects, which would make it easier to balance, as they can be adjusted separately.
There is further opportunity for flavor, with Chaos Blades maybe buffing just Chaos Damage and pairing well with Any Means Necessary, which would make Demonic stronger in this combination.
Restless Hunter and Inner Demon would need to be reworked to activate from gaining/losing Chaos Blades, but that’s an easy fix I suppose.
2 Likes
I think they need to just make Demonic an easy to get no choice talent since it already established itself as a core DH ability.
Demonic Origins should be given a new other choice node instead. Keep Demonic Origin as a CD reducer and add another Meta talent that buffs its damage instead. Now you have a meaningful choice of deciding whether you want a weaker 2min CD meta or a stronger 4min CD meta.
I posted this on the PTR, but just noticed this was already started.
The interaction with demonic, Shattered Destiny, and cycle of hatred is so much fun and I hope that it stays, however how it interacts with Metamorphosis is a problem. On PTR I can maintain (on a target dummy) demonic form for more then 2 min and can do that every 2 min as Metamorphosis comes off cooldown.
I think many of us are worried that the interaction can cause the damage in demonic form to be nerfed to compensate. My thought is what if demonic does not stack with the Metamorphosis time. Metamorphosis then would never be any more then the baseline 36 sec. If we remove that synergy then maybe we can keep the two sides untouched as much as possible. If you use Metamorphosis while under demonic then Meta would overwrite Demonic.
Thoughts?
After the feedback post they did with having DO being 25sec and granting 10% vers, they still would need to remove Meta if you take Demonic just to balance out the two talents.
Otherwise, you still would just select Demonic over DO every time.
I think these two are about balanced now, Demonic vs. Demonic Origins. 25 seconds with 10% damage increase against 36 seconds without.
It is now the Havoc talent tree which doesn’t have equal support for both talent options.
Restless Hunter, Inner Demon, and Cycle of Hatred are all supportive of Demonic while offering no or little benefit to Demonic Origins.
Restless Hunter and Inner Demon are 6x more effective, essentially of no value to Demonic Origins.
Cycle of Hatred increases the value of Demonic by 150% to 200% as it will bring the CD of Eye Beam down to around the 15-20 second mark.
And you would need to take two of those talents to reach Shattered Destiny which looks very valuable now to Demonic Origins as it may increase the duration by up to 15 seconds.
My suggestions for this would be to make the following changes:
Inner Demon changed to while in Demon form Blade Dance procs the Inner Demon which crashes into monsters exploding and hitting targets. Demonic players would choose Restless Hunter but could also pick up Inner Demon, and Demonic Origins players would choose Inner Demon but could also pick up Restless Hunter.
Cycle of Hatred and Shattered Destiny be made into a choice node between the two, with the concept that most often CoH would be paired with Demonic and Demonic Origins would want Shattered Destiny.
It’s 18sec per minute plus the 25 sec from baseline meta. So 79 sec of total meta uptime within 3 min. (18+18+18+25)
With DO its 25 sec for 50 sec of total uptime within 3 min. I don’t think 10% vers covers that gap.
At 2min intervals you have Demonic at 61sec and DO at 25 sec of meta uptime.
At 5min intervals Demonic is at 140sec and DO at 75 sec.
This is just comparing those two talents with Cycle of Hatred and assuming you can easily put eyebeam on a 20sec CD. With Shattered Destiny the gap widens.
Like I said, it’s not Demonic vs Demonic Origin being the problem but the synergy with the Havoc tree being almost entirely in Demonic’s favour.
I believe it should not be possible to choose Cycle of Hatred and Shattered Destiny that they should be a choice node capstone. Restless Hunter should favour frequent short windows of demon form (Demonic) while Inner Demon favours staying in demon form as long as possible (Demonic Origin).
Also I believe that this will take care of a problem before it becomes a constant issue, in that with Demonic staying in demon form is going to be a DPS loss and that Metamorphosis has no value except for if you take the Chaotic Transformation talent.
I suspect that in play as talents currently seem to be designed that Demonic players will cast Eye Beam, Death Sweep, Chaos Strike, and then cancel demon form to leave and get the Blade Dance buff. And your on pull attack will be that, with a use of Meta that you use to Blade Dance Chaos Strike and then cancel so you can run the Eye Beam cycle again which allows a double helping of Death Sweep with 50% bonus.
Demonic Origins should increase Versatility by 20% minimum and passively increase versatility by 10% when not in meta.