Should Blizz put 'unkillable' C'Thun in the game?

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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I feel like they should. I’m picturing a trailer announcing the content patch with AQ. C’Thun in the background acting scary, text reads “13 years ago Ion Hazzikostas, now lead developer on WoW Classic, proved that C’Thun couldn’t be killed. Will you be the one to prove him wrong?”

A couple things: My understanding is that C’Thun was bugged, but even after all bugs were fixed, he was supposedly ‘mathematically unkillable’. There were NO BUGS, but he just couldn’t be killed. So they didn’t change anything, just nerfed the numbers. He was then killed the next day by like 10 guilds. If my understanding is wrong about this, then the rest may be moot.

I got my understanding from this: https:// www.pcgamer. com/the-story-of-cthun-how-a-wow-boss-drove-raiders-to-madness/

Importantly in that article, a guy who was in a top guild at the time says he thinks it could have been done.

As far as #nochanges, obviously unkillable C’Thun was in vanilla.

Why should they do this?

It would be interesting to see if 13 years of practice and theorycrafting have genuinely allowed us to do something they couldn’t back then.

People say we’re better now. Obviously, a modern raid is way more mechanically complex than MC was. But I basically think that on MC, at least, people back then were “as good as they needed to be”. The obsession with people spell clicking, for instance - people could do that back then and still clear endgame content. Rags was basically killed the minute he stopped being buggily unable to be killed, or when people found out how to bug out his brokenly overtuned abilities. And that was with 1.3 gear, 1.3 talents, 1.3 knowledge and add-ons.

‘Unkillable’ C’Thun on the other hand, the top guilds genuinely banged their heads against for 3 months and couldn’t kill him. He was badly bugged for a good chunk of that time, but I think the bugs were fixed something like 30 days before Blizz gave up and nerfed him. A bunch of changes to C’Thun are listed in the patch notes for 1.10.0 (March 28), which I am guessing were the bug fixes. The nerf/kill happened on April 26.

The ‘but patch 1.12’ argument would still apply, but not nearly as much. C’thun was first attempted in patch 1.9, nerfed and killed between patches 1.10.1 and 1.10.2 assuming the article is correct (the nerf isn’t in any patch notes BTW). Most of the item changes were in by then and most class rebalances had been done.

Main issue I see is it might not be possible to actually come up with the pre-nerf numbers. It would be key to get them right, otherwise people could always claim it was over/undertuned. If people had that much trouble with him, maybe they actually saved some of their calculations?

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1.12 was post C’thun and C’thun trash nerfs.

If you looked at Ragnaros, you’ll figure out that the 1.12 patch logic does apply.

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They can’t put unkillable C’Thun in because he was literally unkillable. It wasn’t about mechanics at all it was pure numbers. Simulations of every combination of classes with bis gear and people executing EVERYTHING perfectly(which no raid group can ever do) added up to simply not being able to kill him.

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In 2019 it would happen in the first raid week with a tier 2 raid.

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And this is why it should happen :slight_smile:

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So blizzard can crap on their own history? IDK if they’d be up for that.

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Actually someone asked about it now with “all the game knowledge that was built up over 15 years” if it would be possible and Ion said it probably was

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Because I have two responses, one saying it was mathematically impossible, and another saying it would be done week one in tier 2.

One sure way to know who’s right.

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If raid success were solely determined by a spreadsheet, PvE would be all sorts of garbage.

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I doubt it. Iirc it takes around 230k single target dps on adds with dps being spread out or some in his stomach which was just not possible pre-nerf.

Yes players have gotten better and we have a wealth of knowledge about boss mechanics now compared to then, but putting pre-nerf C’Thun in would surely break A LOT of guilds and turn people off of progression altogether.

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Good. Final bosses of later raid tiers should be hard to down.

That said, no changes.

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If anything something like this would bring many guilds together and seeing the progression (or utter obliteration) would be epic.

Imagine something insane like 40 engineers bringing explosives and spamming masterwork target dummies. I’m sure there’s some out of the box method that would exist and it would be glorious.

Or a bunch of people in broken up blues, tier 1 with the occasional tier 2 piece waltz in and down it.

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Razorgore will take care of that problem long before AQ40

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Just look at how bad the best players were, their idea of mathematically impossible isn’t even valid because they simply weren’t good enough to even realize what was possible.

Imagine chucking 2005 death and taxes into mythic azshara today, they wouldn’t be able to make it past phase 1 after infinite attempts.

The same thing happens with any old game, especially heavily speed ran games, 15 years of competitive speedrunning and you end up with people using combinations of items and pixel perfect movement to warp straight to the ending credits.

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Imagine bosses dropping only 2-3 items per kill for 40 people, and getting stuck on just one boss at a time for linear progression for a month again.

Oh, yeah, that’s what killed my original guild after BWL.

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No it wouldn’t he was unkillable because he was bugged lmao. It was quite literally impossible to kill him.

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why would they put in an unkillable boss

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As i said, Razorgore

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That bug outright breaks mechanics of the fight and doesn’t make it “hard to down” but outright impossible. Increased game knowledge and better consumes isn’t going to magically allow you to kill a tentacle that spawns in the stomach.

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I want unkillable C’Thun for 2-3 weeks just to see if anyone can actually kill him, then nerf him a month in.

There’s been bosses that have been deemed way too difficult in retail that are theoretically impossible to beat like Mythic KJ that Method themselves said they could probably do after 500 more pulls of the 500 they already did before they went on strike to Blizzard.

I think it’d be a fun experience just to see if it could be done with all our new information. Probably be a ton of class stacking but I just want to see if it could be done.