Increased range would not therefore require a change to dps. In fact, I doubt very much that having increased range would really make much difference at all to top logs because positioning is rarely an issue for people playing at that level.
I’d suggest the main playoff is between tankyness / defensives and mobility. Having increased range doesn’t really impact upon our mobility anyway. I have a feeling that people dying to mechanics with shorter range will largely also die to mechanics if they had greater range.
Give one fury warrior 15 yd range and the other 3 yds. Assuming equal gear and skill, which one will do more damage on a flight that requires them to move 10 yards out for a mechanic 5 times during the fight?
Just because you’ve decided range/mobility doesn’t equate to DPS doesn’t mean it’s not still a fact.
It’s the same reason the speed enchant on boots is technically a small DPS increase compared to the HP enchant. It’s incredibly small and not worth dropping the HP, but it’s there.
Getting into range of something faster is a direct DPS increase. Giving a class 40% more range is a very large DPS boost in some situations.
Bottom line is that anything that increases uptime is a direct DPS buff, whether that’s mobility or range.
Giving a melee class range to increase their uptime is very different from comparing the dps of ranged, for example, a highly mobile frost mage or hunter to an immobile warlock. There are often times when a warlock spec does less damage even when stationary than a hunter does. Tuning is not based on mobility.
It’s easier to illustrate with my example, but you could say the same thing about ranged.
Take Ulgraxx. Give one dev evoker 40yds and the other stays at 25. When the adds spawn across the platform on intermission one can do damage 15 yards sooner.
More uptime=more DPS.
More range/mobility = more uptime=more dps.
This is not a new or novel idea. It’s not an opinion piece. It’s a literal fact of DPS theorycrafting.
Ahh but you added in ‘range’ to your clause. I would agree that more range can increase dps on specific encounters when you would otherwise be outranged. Your example about warrior was also about range.
What I said, however, is that blizzard do not tune classes based on how mobile they are.
Also, I specifically said that I didn’t think that TOP logs would be effected by increased range, because of how proficient they already are with positioning.
Of course, people who struggle more with positioning would benefit more from increased range and the skill gap would decrease, and then you move towards the discussion based around skill expression, but that is an entirely different argument.
That said, I would be very surprised if the main reason most people play evoker is because they want to show skill expression. Other classes are far better placed if that’s your goal.
I completely disagree. If you look at top patchwork sims for each class, you will find that there are more mobile classes that out-sim less mobile classes. If tuning was based on mobility, there would be a clear progression, with ranged hunters simming for the absolute lowest damage, and warlocks simming top. This is not the case and often it’s quite the opposite.
Are you arguing that mobility doesn’t matter on a sim that doesn’t simulate any movement?
Whether or not tuning is based on mobility doesn’t change that more mobility is a DPS buff.
You’re comparing one class/spec against another.
Two identically capable players of the same class where one has more mobility is going to lead to that player having more potential DPS in a non patchwerk environment.
No, that’s just a fact. I’m arguing that it illustrates that there is not a strong correlation between class mobility and sim dps.
Yup, which I’ve also said. However, I stand by the fact that I believe the difference will be very minor for top evokers.
I would put this question to you: if evokers did get extra range, and we only moved up on the logs by a relatively small margin so as to not get to a place where we’d be towards the top of the logs, do you think Bliz would still feel the need to make some sort of change elsewhere?
They have said that they will tend to look at the top overperforming specs and the bottom underperforming specs and tune those.
If they gave evoker additional range and we suddenly started hugely overperforming, then yes, I can see why they would need to make changes elsewhere. I’m honestly not convinced that this would be the case though. I don’t think I’ve found range an issue on a single encounter in TWW now that we have Spatial Paradox.
That doesn’t mean that more mobility in a real encounter doesn’t give more uptime which gives more DPS.
The real game doesn’t happen in a sim.
I just simmed a heavy movement fight where I dropped aerial mastery and slipstream from my normal spec.
The difference was over 2% of my overall damage. You can say that doesn’t sound like a lot, but it’s massive from a min/max perspective. A 2% aura buff is actually a marginal buff to a class. And that assumes PERFECT play. It also doesn’t take into account the added safety that mobility can give.
The point is that we don’t need an adjustment to range, the specs are performing well and we have absurd amounts of hover uptime now.
If they’re going to make a change to increase our dps, it should come by buffing our kit, not our range.
The context of me saying that mobility and dps don’t correlate is based on bliz tuning, not for a specific player gaining increased mobility. In the context of bliz tuning classes around mobility, I stand by what I said.
I agree. But what I’m saying is that Bliz would only tune around that if somehow the mobility led to a particular spec overperforming.
I also agree.
I’m not arguing that we need more range. I’m just arguing that I don’t believe increasing our range would necessarily mean we need adjusting elsewhere. That would only be necessary if we started overperforming vs other classes.
If we are going to argue against increased range, we should focus on the real reasons, like how people enjoy the balance and exchange of mobility cooldowns for uptime and being able to figure out encounters, how people enjoy that element of skill expression, how it would become really awkward with specific abilities like fire breath / knock racials or how it would mean in pvp we would need our kiting-oriented talents adjusted.
This statement is fluid, though. It completely relies on how the spec is performing at the exact moment the range were hypothetically buffed.
If the adjustment were made in s4 of DF where we were absolutely destroying people, it absolutely would.
It doesn’t change the fact that it’s a direct dps buff to give a spec more range, and it doesn’t change that if we’re going to get a dps buff, it shouldn’t come from extending our range unnecessarily.
More uptime does not mean more damage per second. It just means more uptime.
Listen, if you have a stick and start whacking a tree with it, how much damage you do is your dps. If you have a LONGER stick and can step back and hit the tree farther away, do you damage the tree more with the longer stick? No, but you can hit it from farther away. The idea that constantly being in range of your target will make you do more damage over a 2 minute span as opposed to being forced to move in and out of range of the target (you’re fighting the whomping willow now) is something I’ll never get since ideally you should always try to be in range of your target and that’s the same for every class.
It’s the same as saying the current range is designed so that you are SUPPOSED to have times in EVERY encounter when you just can’t hit the boss, but that’s not the case, is it? Uptime for every class is supposed to be considered 100% on sims.
Increased range would not increase dps, just uptime. And increased uptime WOULD affect overall damage, certainly. Something evoker is having a known issue with at the moment. Imagine a world where you can hawk TUA your Pyre from 40 yards away at targets, instead of having to wait until they’re all neatly stacked right in front of you as we must now.
Or better yet, I wish Pyre left the same DoT as Fire Breath at Lv 1. Imagine that with a 40yrd range. Travel time of mobs would matter way less if you didn’t have to rely on a frontal cone with a 30 second cd for our DoT.
Good work instantly contradicting yourself here. More overall damage over the same number of seconds equals more DPS.
You’re arguing this like it’s not already a fact in this game. I know we live in a world where facts don’t matter to most, but it doesn’t change that you’re wrong.
No, it’s not. What’s your source on this “known issue”?
It was an ordinary day, after work I decided to go into the game and play my dragon, nothing foreshadowed trouble… until I was invited in M+ group with ret paladin and enh shaman, so I’m sure you already got what this post is about.
As a result, I dealt about 60-70% of the damage each of them did (I don’t count bombardment), what is wrong with this game? Developers have complete indifference to their community and to the game!
Pyre’s damage is pathetic! Disintegrate’s x3 targeting is useless on M11+ dungeons with large packs, it have to be x6 (M+ key lvl divided by 2) or somthing like this."
I’ve encountered the same issue when playing with others, especially my pally buddy. This is just more proof that you just don’t like reading what people are saying if they don’t agree with you. It’s right there and has been since Beta.
LMAO your “source” is ONE anecdotal post from someone who admitted they “don’t count bombardment damage” and didn’t even log the run to show actual data🤡?
Dev is not doing amazing damage in keys, but these numbers are legitimately not even CLOSE to the delta claimed in that post.
A player who is not performing optimally on a spec telling a story about how they perform poorly (while not including 10+% of their DPS ) and consequently not removing 3+% of the DPS of everyone else)) is not an example of a “known issue”.
Even if this weren’t a joke of a source, none of the problems resulting in poor DPS had acting to do with range being a problem. There’s no situation in this season in raid or mythic plus where the range presents a problem.
You’re clearly just trolling at this point and have no interest in facts or actually learning.
Ah yes, there it is again. Your penultimate defense that everything is fine and others are either trolling or terrible. I almost forgot. Back to the Blacklist for you, this time for longer than a day. Enjoy the void.
