tell me , what is a shaman to do before they get their 5 stacks of block to improve their armor?
that equates to about a full plate char without a shield in armor and they need that cushion of dr and hp pool till they get their block stacks up to be a proper tank.
and heres where you lose me.
its not the whole class and most of the complaining is the way of earth rune being too tanky . remove it from pvp only and you solve the issue.
classes can be strong without gutting them in pvp and pve.
sure lets name half the abilities of the class yet somehow have specifics.
Ok now can you articulate as to why ret is more op than the other classes mentioned. This time, assuming the players all have there cooldowns. Not one class fighting another where 1 has cooldowns ready and the other does not.
Why is ret stronger than all the other classes? Please explain
And why do you argue rets are still this powerful after the nerfs we have received when you literally just put shaman at number 1 and have yet to recieve nerfs yourself
Why do they need to? I just said change the 10% flat damage reduction into either bonus armor or a physical reduction. Rogues have to stack up their bonus health.
No they donât. Just respectfully you are wrong and know nothing about the situation. Full stop. I hate talking to you about this because you never ever ever ever admit that thereâs anything wrong with shaman. They totally need everything all the time. Totally. Itâs absurd. You never concede ANYTHING. You are insufferable to converse with.
The only thing tanks need is crit immune, avoidance stats, and a taunt. Everything else is just fluff. Give them some stats that arenât just flat out perfect power for PVP in a single freaking rune.
Itâs not that âOh shaman are too tankyâ itâs that shaman are such a massive threat that because they are so tanky, itâs difficult to remove them from the fight or deal with them. If being hard to kill was exclusively an issue, prot paladins would be monsters. But they arenât. And they arenât because prot paladins donât also have:
Slows and roots
The ability to eat spells with their totems
Passive poison/disease cleansing with totems
Powerful instant cast damage with auto crits.
6 second ranged interrupt
Effective self healing with instant cast heals.
Shamanistic rage reducing damage taken by 20% gives 75%mana return and 18% mana to the raid, if they were the set bonus it brings it upto 35% damage reduction and adds a 25% melee attack speed with 35% casting speed all on a 1 min cd.
Wolves stun the target, deal damage, have alot of health, heal the shaman, and gives the shaman a 60% movement speed increase. 3 min cd
Way of earth While Rockbiter Weapon is active on your main hand weapon and you have a shield equipped, you deal 65% increased threat, gain 25% increased health, take 10% reduced damage, gain 6% reduced chance to be critically hit by melee attacks, and Earth Shock taunts targets to attack you and has a separate cooldown from other Shock spells
Decoy/grounding totems not sharing a cooldown
The totem boons, 1 being 15% movement speed for 2 min.
A 6 second ranged kick, no class has this fast of a kick let alone being 20yd range aswell
Aoe flameshocks that tick for hundreds
Purge not having a cooldown
Being able to use tank and healing runes or gear in any spec
I see youâve taken the âKoS my guildâ routeânothing says âIâm mad enough to argueâ like outlawing an entire guild. Thatâs cute. While youâre busy brandishing your ret paladinâs bubble and Lay on Hands like a badge of honor, letâs look at the actual numbers behind our shamans.
Shamanistic Rage & Set Bonuses: You claim paladins rule because of bubble and LoH. But did you notice that shamanistic rage cuts incoming damage by 20% (even 35% when boosted by the set bonus) while refunding a whopping 75% of mana along with an 18% heal-to-raid bonus? And if that isnât enough, it also boosts melee attack speed by 25% and casting speed by 35% on a one-minute cooldown. In a fight where every second counts, thatâs a powerhouse of defensive and offensive utility you donât see coming on your bubbleâs roster.
Wolves & Utility: While youâre busy bragging about your âcoolâ defensive cooldowns, our shamans deploy wolves that not only stun and deal damage but also pack plenty of health, self-heal, and even give a 60% movement speed boost to the shaman. Imagine trying to outrun a pack that refuses to let you get awayâeven if you have bubble on standby, your retâs burst potential is going to be interrupted by those stuns.
Way of Earth Synergy: When Rockbiter is active and a shield is equipped, shamans ramp up their game with 65% increased threat, a 25% health boost, 10% damage reduction, and even get a mini-taunt on Earth Shock (with its own cooldown). While you might say âpaladins have burst potential,â our shamans are busy turning the tide with continuous, stacked advantages that force you to react rather than execute your combo rotations.
Totemic Freedom & Fast Interrupts: Decoy/grounding totems come off cooldown separately, and the totem boons (like the 15% movement speed buff lasting 2 minutes) arenât just flavorâthey shift positioning and pace. And letâs not forget that 6-second ranged kick with a 20-yard range. No paladin has a kick that quick and far-reaching. That extra 20 yards of control can mean the difference between landing your Judgment combo and getting stunned out of the fight.
Sustained AoE Pressure: AoE flameshocks that tick for hundreds of damage plus a Purge ability with no cooldown? Thatâs not just a series of fancy effects; itâs a relentless pressure that can dismantle your retâs rhythm. Meanwhile, your reliance on bubble and a single LoH means that once those timers are up, your window of opportunity evaporates fast.
Equipment Flexibility: And while youâre pegged as a âretâ purveyor, look at our shamans: they can slip into tank or healing gear no matter the spec, giving them an adaptability that rigid ret builds just donât have. Versatility in gear means more options when the fight shiftsâone minute youâre the aggressor, the next youâre soaking hits and keeping the pressure on.
Letâs be clear: while your ret paladin might have its flashy defensive cooldowns, itâs built on a narrow set of tools that everyoneâs seen since vanilla. In contrast, shamans have a full suite of interlocking abilitiesâfrom damage reduction, mana returns, threat manipulation, to crowd control and burst interruptsâthat create a layered, persistent threat in PvP. So before you go on about bubbles being the epitome of balance, remember that when every class has their cooldowns lined up, the shamanâs relentless utility is ready to erase your âoutrageously overpoweredâ ret narrative.
Maybe next time, Arkaviun, instead of putting guilds on KoS lists and tossing around blanket statements about âopâ abilities, you could try reading the full spell sheets. After all, numbers donât lieâeven if youâre too busy clinging to your bubble to notice the facts.
Now, if you want specifics about paladins: Ret paladins shine in burst damage, defensive cooldowns, and targeted healing. They counter many classes with powerful spells like Divine Shield and Lay on Hands. However, their reliance on these few abilities means that when facing a team (or even a single opponent) who systematically exploits timingâlike shamans with their consistently active shamanistic rage, stuns, and mobility boostsâthey can quickly find themselves outmaneuvered. In a well-coordinated fight where everyoneâs playing with all cooldowns up, ret paladinsâ strengths turn into predictable, exploitable patterns compared to the shamansâ layered and adaptable toolkit.
Ready to keep the argument rolling, or need more ammunition on another matchup? Thereâs always more to unpack in the delightful chaos of PvP theorycrafting.
Are you a bot? Are you even a real human being? What in Godâs name are you even talking about? Did you not post a long winded bunch of nonsense about paladins being completely overpowered and in need of nerfs? I donât think you have object permanence.
The current dps ranks have rets above all shaman specs and 4th overall.
Its crazy how you just continue to post bs garbage on these forums about shamans and never back up your claims. Its starting to get comical how you keep crashing out in every single thread about shamans. You are straight up becoming a meme at this point.
Yes itâs OLD TIER where paladins have an advantage. Why donât you take a look at the scarlet enclave numbers, where rets are 4th worst and elemental shaman are top 3?
Go to warcraft logs and look. Itâs literally on statistics. Are you incapable of simple research? Itâs not even like I am obfuscating it, I am telling you where to find it, the same resource you JUST used.
Between Amideus spewing insults and broken promises to ignore or report anyone who dares to make valid points, and Arkaviun tossing out unbacked nonsense as if it were the gospel, one canât help but wonder if weâre witnessing a genuine debate or simply a circus of posturing and theatrics.
Look at the audacity to comment on a genuine question relating to pvp, paladins got nerfed cool just curious why shamans are the tankiest class in the game is all. Thanks for the good feed back