Hmm interesting point of view. But on the same vein, what if an undergeared prot warrior took 75 minutes to clear a raid because he needed extra healers and due to lack of dps for those slots. And a well geared Pally did the same in 45 minutes. Would you say the warrior tanked it? I can’t think of anyone saying no.
This is a good question. And I don’t know the answer to that. Can I hold enough aggro for my guild? yeah, it’s ok/adequate. I think it’s subjective and depends on the dps in question. I man some four ‘typical’ tanks sometimes have issues holding threat too and need some time before everyone goes all out. Could I do it with a raid full of top dps? who knows. Maybe not. Maybe yes.
Of course, but at what point? I mean, if I can run a raid with totally new classes involved but it took 4 hours instead of 35 min, are you going to consider that a viable raid composition? We have to be realistic about things and not just hopeful.
Of course not, and I don’t…but you seem to be avoiding my question. If a raid takes 5 times longer does that make them viable? I mean seriously, at what point do you start saying “Ok, this just isn’t working like we hoped”.
I mean yeah if something takes 5 times longer and the tank keeps dying and dying yeah something is not working. But I don’t think that’s the case with shaman tanks. I never ran with 3 healers in Kara for example. But I would say if someone is doing something that has never done before (tanking Prince pre-nerf in the above example) it makes total sense for them to be conservative and lean on the safe side.
I would agree on raids your guild is just starting to work on, but once it is a raid everyone knows and is used to, my personal opinion is, if it is taking twice as long as average numbers, it is time to make a change.
Again, if the Shaman can do this, and do it repeatedly, I am all for it.
But if I am in a guild that is trying to push a Shaman as the main tank just to be different, and the raid is taking 3-5 times longer then it would if we just used a Pally/Druid/Warrior, I would not consider that viable personally and I wouldn’t be with that guild long.
If the Shaman is tanking and the time is not substantially longer, then I don’t care who tanks as long as it is working.
I am not against anyone tanking, as long as my limited time in the game is not substantially affected by it. I certainly don’t care if we are server first or last.
Neither would most of us. Even with a good Shaman tank doing it just as fast would take a ton of extra caution and attention from the raid. It takes a good group of players to be with to have the the patience and determination to use a Shaman tank.
That being said, if another raid wants to do it I’m supporting it 100%. Why wouldn’t I want to see other’s succeed in a fun and new exciting way?
Totally. Actually, I would say people let a shaman have a chance at tanking after they have learned a raid not before. Shaman tanks need specific caution, have specific gearing needs too. So I would not have a shaman tank MT a raid boss during progression. Off-tank would probably be fine.
Also, I have never been the MT for our guild. I don’t know if there’s is a guild out there that would try to have a Shaman Tank as an MT to be different. If there is, point me in their direction!! (just kidding I love my guild )
Oh I would never even begin to tell another guild what do to on this. I’m sure there are guilds that do this on purpose just to push the envelope, it just isn’t for me.
Still getting the words ‘viable’ and ‘optimal’ mixed up. Viable means something is capable of working successfully. Optimal means something is the best way of working successfully (the META, or the Most Effective Tactic Available). No one, not even OP, appears to be arguing that a shaman tank is the best way to get the job done. Rather, it is (uniquely) one way to get the job done.
And you are still looking at this situation through the lens of a speed-clear, parse oriented group. I was in a Classic guild P1-P4 that used a Prot Paladin as our MT (for fights that didn’t require any taunting). We allowed off-specs, PvP specs, whatever. We had two Ret Palys, a Boomkin, 2 shadow priests and loads of other people showing up in PvP specs and whatnot.
Our raid time was Friday & Saturday nights. We got drunk on Discord together and just threw parses and speed killing out the window and just had fun with the game. We killed all bosses this way because the game is easy enough as it stands. Our group was far from optimal, but it was certainly viable, or capable of clearing content.
I’m actually 100% okay with a variable amount of Healers because the trade-off is against the DPS. If you stack 10 Healers and can still kill the boss, I think that’s actually just fine since the threshold is met. The reason we don’t stack Healers is because they often have little to do or the damage taken happens too quickly for even multiple Healers to catch.
Eh nothing is explicitly hard in Wrath, but the EH checks are unforgiving. You either can endure Steelbreaker’s Fusion Punch or you can’t. You either survive Lich King’s Soul Reaper or you don’t.
Also 10m are going to get pooped on. They’re designed to be explicitly easier and reward weaker items on top of that. It isn’t until Cata that we get 10m difficulties that endeavor to be equally challenging to 25m. That being said, Tanks that are used to pushing the envelope with as much TPS/DPS gear as they can manage are going to have rude awakenings in Wrath.
A Druid stacking Haste/ArP is a force to be reckoned with while Tanking for the numbers they can dish out. That same Druid will not endure the aforementioned EH checks even with CDs up in many situations.
Tank viability is a floor, not a ceiling, and so to be fair we need to consider the floor for everyone else as well. Warglaive equipped Kebab Warriors are not the floor for DPS, but rather the 1100 DPS pumped out by a half-AFK Shadow Priest since that’s all you need to beat the enrage for the boss.
DPS can always slow down so long as an Enrage isn’t looming.
I don’t think anyone argues that Shaman are competitive in a Tank role outside of a few wackadoodles like Caperfin. Viability is all that’s needed to be considered a particular role.
Not really, Shaman get even squishier relative to the real Tanks in Wrath. The EH scaling gets kinda out of hand.
EDIT: Take every possible beefy talent you can find for Shaman and it barely equals literally any kind of DK just hitting Frost Presence, minus the numerous other talents, Runeforge, self-healing, taunts, CDs, Plate, baseline Stamina on gear, etc.
Well I’m not here to argue about what happens in Wrath, because I won’t be playing it. I just wanted to squash the “Wrath is going to be a challenge” tone, because it won’t be.
I’m just posting here in shock at the numerous people who are flaming OP for trying something outside the box.
The whining I mentioned is stuff like a Paladin doing Gormok and needing Intervene or Pain Suppression to get through the same number of Impales as a DK or Druid who just eat it on their own. It isn’t “this is hard” whining so much as “this isn’t FAIR” whining that we’re likely to see.
(just kidding I love my guild 
)