Shaman PTR Feedback

Hi all, I’m some feedback on the new runes for Shaman. Outside of resto I’m not going to focus on numbers yet since we don’t have world buffs to test with, but I do have some thoughts on overall design of the new runes.

I’m mostly versed in Resto and Enhance, so I’ll give feedback for those two specs, plus a bit of general stuff at the end. Here goes:

Resto is gaining a rune that makes Chain Heal bounce to 4 targets (up from 3) and have 35% reduction per jump instead of the default 50%. This results in an overall increase of 34.1% healing to chain heal. This is a good change to incentivize the use of resto shaman’s iconic spell, but it has two issues:

  • First - Chain heal is one of the lowest HPS filler spells for a healer - looking at the top 10 healing shaman on WCL (sod.warcraftlogs. com/zone/rankings/2009/#class=Shaman&spec=Restoration&dpstype=wdps&metric=hps) they averaged only 17.4% of their healing as Chain Heals. This means the new cloak rune is likely only about a 6% HPS increase. Rsham is currently around 30% behind every other healing spec (sod.warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/2009/#metric=hps&dataset=99) in terms of maximum throughput, so a minor buff is unlikely to increase their viability by much.
    On the bright side, resto will also be able to run Earth Shield now, but it’s nearly impossible to find a good Rsham running it now so it’s hard to judge how much ES will add. Given Resto’s near-inability to OOM, it’s probably fine to have them be lower output as a trade-off, but if the gap is too large they’ll continue to be rare relative to druids and priests.

  • Second - almost every top rsham is currently using Healing Rain. Using the same top 10 logs from before, the average Healing Rain cast was about 1700 healing and the average Chain Heal was 1100. With the new cloak rune, and without the ST set bonus boosting healing rain, taking Overload and spamming chain heal will result in ~730 HPS, while taking Healing Rain and casting it on CD (while spamming Chain Heal with your other globals) will result in only 630 HPS. Overload also gives you more DPS and boosts your Healing Waves, making it even more beneficial. In short, with the new cloak rune, I fear that Rsham will be pigeonholed into running Overload over Healing Rain, so Rsham will effectively get a new dead healing rune like Earth Shield was before SR went baseline.

Some (potential) solutions to the above:

  • (If you want to boost Rsham throughput and have a standardized rune build) Move healing rain to belt slot - currently the only benefit that resto shaman gets from a belt rune is the mana return from Power Surge. Resto already has immense amounts of mana, so giving them an HPS option in that slot serves as a small HPS buff and gives them another spell to use besides Riptide and Chain Heal.

  • (If you want to promote customizing your runes to the situation) Add a boost to healing rain to the new cloak rune. I don’t have anything specifically in mind - It could be something like “Healing Rain will heal 5 raid members instead of all party members” (like how Chain Heal bounces between parties), or a plain numerical increase, or whatever you feel is appropriate, just something to encourage using Healing Rain over Overload when the damage pattern of a fight makes Healing Rain good.

  • As a side note, I’ve been including the 4th chain heal bounce as though it’ll always get value, but the classic bounce range of chain heal is very tiny. It’s pretty common for Chain Heal to not bounce at all if it’s not targeted at a melee, so resto shamans will often be one button spamming a tank to get all 4 bounces. Including an increase to bounce range in the cloak rune would be a massive quality of life boost and allow for more engaging gameplay.

Enhance in a raid setting got minor numerical nerfs from Mental Dexterity, while keeping their same rotation. I consider this a win since the spec is fun to play and likely needed some minor nerfs to not be overpowering in single target.

Outside of raid, they received a big nerf to their healing, which in combination with the damage nerf could make them feel fairly weak in PvP. They’re glass cannon-y and had only slows as CC. I’m hoping Feral Spirit will go a long way towards mitigating this, but I wouldn’t be shocked to see Elemental become the preferred PvP spec by a very wide margin (even moreso than it already is).

My main specific thoughts:

  • 2hander spec has not received any changes and is still going to be worse than dual wield. I personally don’t see a way to fix that without including more effects in the Two-Hand Mastery rune, since any changes you make elsewhere will likely boost other specs that are already powerful.
    The class fantasy of 2hand enhance is inconsistent but powerful burst, so I’d suggest something that plays into that. Ideas could be like increasing critical strike multiplier for spells and/or attacks (which could also them feel better about having to run Lava Burst as their hand rune instead of having their own dedicated one) or something like making windfury give 3 extra hits instead of 2. I’m not personally attached to these specific ideas, but I do think that the 2hand spec should lean into burst with WF and having more powerful but less frequent Maelstrom spell casts.

  • Lava Lash baits inexperienced enhance shamans into running WF/FT instead of WF/WF. The benefits of extra melee hits from offhand windfury (mainly Maelstrom procs, Static Shock hits, and Flurry uptime) are better than the damage boost to Lava Lash. I’d honestly suggest removing the damage boost that Lava Lash gets from Flametongue entirely since a lot of people see it, think they’re “supposed” to run flametongue, and nerf their own damage. Alternatively you could do something spicy to make FT actually better - maybe boost its spellpower scaling and allow flametongue crits to proc Elemental Devastation.

  • Riptide is currently the only instant cast shaman spell that resets the swing timer. It’s easy to test this - I have a gif here: (imgur. com/a/cdcS2DQ) - as you can see, Flame shock, Earth Shield, (maelstrom cast) Lightning Bolt all leave the swing timer (the green and red triangles on my mana bar) moving as normal, but when I cast riptide at the end of the gif, my swings stop moving and reset. This is super counter-intuitive for players and makes Riptide much less appealing for enhance specifically.

  • Feral Spirit (based on my testing) is scaling off of AP, but not SP. This is probably intentional to discourage its use by caster specs, but if that’s incorrect and you do want it to scale for all shaman specs it should have both AP and SP scaling.

  • The new ghost wolf rune for indoors GW is nice for quality of life, but having it reduce the cast time of GW by 1 second (so it’s instant with talents) would be incredible and make me very happy.

For non-class/spec specific comments:

  • The ring runes are cool, but some specs lack options. I’m specifically thinking of single-school caster specs like Shadow Priest or Mage, as currently implemented Shadow priest has only one rune that does anything for them (Shadow hit chance), and Fire mage has zero runes that do anything for them (since they cap hit off talents alone). Having a generic option for like an hp or mana boost would feel a lot better than leaving one of the rings effectively unengraved.

  • PvP (duels at least) feels incredibly bursty again, the PvP DR will probably need additional tuning since damage is still outscaling hp pool.

4 Likes

Ah, you speak from inexperience. WF/FT is about 0.5% worse than WF/WF. If a WF/WF shaman does 1000 dps, a WF/FT will do 995 dps. Maybe you should learn a little before making assumptions?

2 handers?
2 words: ice strike :snowflake::hammer:

If you look at WCL there’s not a single shaman running WF/FT in the top 100 results - I checked them all before making this post. I get that the sim says they’re roughly equivalent, but that doesn’t hold up if you look at real world data and find that the first WF/FT shaman (wherever they are) is hundreds of dps below the top WF/WF ones.

It’s okay, you don’t actually play the class, I don’t need to listen to how you read numbers off someone else’s performance.

It’s been months of us running raids this phase. I’ve ran both. There is no difference. You would know that if you played the class and read your own numbers, but you don’t, you just read numbers on a website.

They are exactly the same.

hold on there dude.

to be honest. the website has more data points than your anecdotal experience and is a solid posit of a point.

you cant just throw out actual statistical data proving that one is clearly better and is played by people that know more than alot of us as to the why of things.

please dont be so agressive about it.

Hi. Wrong forum.

2 Likes

Lmao okay.

Then they are. You run a sim? Its the same. You try it yourself? Its the same. You check logs of people who only run one and not the other and OoOoH look! A lack of evidence! I can use that to further my own imaginary narrative!

Then tell the rando on the forum to stop spreading lies about a class he doesn’t play.

You check logs of people who only run one and not the other

That’s not what I did. I checked logs for the highest dps enhance shamans and zero of them run WF/FT. If they’re roughly equivalent as you claim, there should be a mix of each in the top 200 results. In reality there’s 0 people running WF/FT in the top 100 logs, and only 2 people running it in the next 100. The average shaman in the top 200 who ran WF/WF did 1453.99 dps, and the average shaman running WF/FT did 1394.25 dps. That’s a difference of 4.28%, nearly 10 times higher than the number you arbitrarily claimed.

Then tell the rando on the forum to stop spreading lies about a class he doesn’t play.

I do play the class, you can look at my logs since I’m posting from the character I raid with. Here you go: sod.warcraftlogs. com/character/id/79756341

Balth is literally just on here to troll and occasionally (rarely) contribute anything of value to a conversation.

and he has been void touched by Xalatath on my phone again

Here to bump this post up so 2h will hopefully get looked at by the devs.

You’re the one who doesn’t play the shaman class. Almost everything you have ever stated about shamans here is dead wrong. You assume that getting to level 63 in Cataclysm classic makes you a shaman pro. It doesn’t. I’d go so far as to say that every single person you have accused of not knowing how to play their shaman class, plays the shaman class far better than you do.

I don’t know how to play a rogue. Therefore, I have never once in my entire history of posting on the forums with any toon of mine, tried to tell anyone how to play a rogue.

Posting on a class does not mean you know how to play that class and you most certainly don’t know how to play yours. Unless you do know how to play and are just trolling people because I see you back-to-back on so many threads accusing so many posters of not knowing how to play a shaman and yet the majority of the fixes you try to give other people about the class are just dead wrong.

I bet you wouldn’t be able to list what a good shaman rotation is without googling it.

I read more and more of your posts. You seem serious so I dont think that you are trolling. I think that you just dont know how to play a shaman.

No shame in that. I’ll never claim to be an expert rogue even though that is what I am posting on.

Perhaps in terms of raw damage from the weapons/Stormstrike/LavaLash…

But there is a DISTINCT drop off in the amount of MSW procs you get with FT OH.

Also: now that we have training dummies, this is very easy to test.
Took off MH Weapon just put WF on offhand Snake Clobberer and cast Lava Lash
With WF: Lava Lash hit for 208-213
With FT: Lava Lash hit for 400-500

With FT: OH Melees were hitting for 242 + 110 Fire damage (every time)
With WF: OH melees were hitting for 242 + 2x315 WF hits about every 5 hits. (Which tracks with about 20% chance)

So over the course of 10 OH Swings:
(FT) 10 OH strikes 2430 + 1100 FT dmg = 3520 damage
WF 10 OH strikes 2430 + 1260 WF dmg = 3690 damage

That seems to track with the sims on damage…
But here’s why you see all the top raiders using WF/WF
FT gives you 10 Proc chances for MSW in a 10 OH Melee window
WF gives you 14 proc chances for MSW in a 10 OH Melee window.