Shadowlands RP - why is it so polarizing?

I played on and off throughout Legion and BfA because I felt the story was disappointing (far more so in BfA’s case) and hard to engage with on a character level, a sentiment that was somewhat shared by my RP partners. Our group liked the beginning of Legion, but only as a jumping off point to rework characters and we were pretty disconnected from the actual narrative going on at that point… not to mention us writing our characters out of the war effort in BfA. And yet, coming back to the game and trying to feel out the community, I see swathes of people talking about how they refuse to RP in SL and otherwise refuse to engage with SL content in any serious context.

So I have to wonder, why does Shadowlands seem to be the collective line in the sand for disengaging narratives? Is it a growing disillusionment with the story that’s been building for years, or is it really just that it isn’t Azeroth?

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I’m sure you’ll receive a myriad of reasons but the biggest one that stands to my mind is that it simply has no relevance to a character that isn’t an equivalent to the “champion” or “maw walker” or RPing as a member of the suicide squad that seemingly got sent over without any say in the matter.

How visible is this hole in the sky around Azeroth? Is it widely known about by common folk? Even if it is, hearsay and rumours tend to distort the truth and frankly, the truth wouldn’t be any incentive for most characters to want to risk going somewhere they:

A) Don’t need to go
B) May not be permitted to go
C) Do not know if they can return from

All in all, the whole story could effectively be unfolding under wraps, with made up reasons for the absence of leaders issued to regular members of the Alliance and Horde. As for my character, he couldn’t give two kobold’s buttocks about any of it. He’s busy arranging terrorist attacks on the Horde. Kaldorei never got justice.

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I think the reasons are different depending on who you ask. Eight people will have around ten different answers at any given time, but I can give you my personal reasons.

First of all, I think Lorendrethil has made a good point. The idea of going to the Shadowlands feels very champion-y. I’m aware that Ol’ Emma and Philia Fintalas are in Oribos, but this seems more like an easter egg than actual lore. We actually see very little to no involvement by the broader population - there are no workers to set up keeps, there are no infantrymen divisions or dwarf riflemen going around, and there are no Alliance or Horde camps to speak of. Things like this gave previous expansions a more “hands-on” feel.

For example, it was reasonable to expect that even standard characters were traveling to Northrend, Pandaria, Draenor and the Broken Isles since there were tons of opportunities to see just that. With the Shadowlands, the entire ordeal feels more like it only involves champions.

The second reason, and this is the bigger one for me, is that the Shadowlands seem to take over belief systems and RP questions that were unanswered for a reason. I’ve encountered this situation a couple of times:

This character: He is in a better place now, I’m sure of it.
Guy/Girl: I wonder which Covenant/Afterlife they were sent to.
This character: He’s with the Light now. There’s no need to wonder.
Guy/Girl: Well, he has to be somewhere. I just wonder which one.

It feels like an inflationary use of the afterlife. Different cultures, different rites, different approaches to death and the inevitability of it are reduced to “the Shadowlands.” The thing is: my Tauren would believe the deceased are with the Earth Mother. My priest here would believe in salvation through the Light. My Orc would believe fallen warriors are in the honorable company of their ancestors. For example, the pursuit of honor in life to be honored in the afterlife can be a large part of what defines a culture/society. You can’t disconnect the Viking fantasy from Valhalla, the Klingons from Sto-Vo-Kor, or any of the other depictions of the “honorable afterlife” idea. If you suddenly took such a loosely defined system - an unique system to each race - and overlaid that with “Well, here’s Maldraxxus?”

It becomes…bland. Imagine if your ancestors are suddenly not the ones judging your worth, but the Arbiter is? Imagine if a culture suddenly finds out that honorable conduct isn’t required, but just being a good fighter is. Here’s the thing: yes, honor is a relative perspective. What’s honorable to one is dishonorable to another in certain situations. But playing around with these differences can create flavor. Just mushing all of this into the idea of Maldraxxus, and then spreading this in the actual physical world as common knowledge?

I hate it. I deeply, fundamentally hate it. That doesn’t mean you can’t RP it. I’m a firm defender of “your subscription money, your RP.” But I personally choose to stay away from it and keep my characters ignorant on purpose. Having every warrior from every culture (except Zandalari) suddenly go: “Well, I’ll end up in Maldraxxus then!” or every person from every culture who is in service to a greater ideal and commits his life to doing good suddenly saying: “I’ll become a Kyrian when I go!”

It feels bland. It turns what used to be a hotpot of cultural differences into a one-size-fits-all solution.

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The whole expansion flies in the face of previously established story and for me, I no longer have the energy to be party to it.

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ive gone over my list of grievances enough times, but to sum it up

its just not something you can mentally engage with. the literal, physical, actual afterlife? huh? how is someone supposed to connect with that?

especially when there’s no spark of effort made to make us build said connections.

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Legion and BFA were whole faction efforts. The Alliance and Horde went off to fight the Legion, or connect to 'Tiras or the Zandalari. Of course the story was told through your eyes THE CHAMPION HERO(now Maw Walker), but that’s MMO RP for you, you play the PvE as the main protagonist and roleplay as some jerk following events of the world.

Everything about SL was about the racial leaders. They’re the ones taken by Forsworn. They’re the ones who head to ICC and bring the a Horde/Alliance protagonist. Even when you establish a portal to the Shadowlands which… I guess now just EXISTS in major cities? Ebon Blade come through. Not any faction NPCs. There is nothing, narrative or world-wise that shows Azeroth’s murder hobos are following their leaders. The story has purposefully left out the greater population.

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Has your character lost someone important to them? An old friend, a wizened mentor, a significant other, or even a longtime archnemesis? A parent, maybe? Both parents? Was this loss an important part of their character development, a catalyst for a new outlook, a source of pathos, an end of an important chapter in their life?

Well, don’t you worry! Now your character’s lost loved ones and vanquished rivals are just a death gate away! Pop in anytime and ask them how they’ve been. Share a laugh as you reminisce about how tragic and affecting their death was, and how it totally changed your character’s entire arc.

Oh, but, uh, if the Kyrian got to them first just know that they’re a blue-skinned human now regardless of whatever race they may have been in life. Awkward. And on the subject of race, if your race or culture had any deeply-held beliefs about the afterlife, well, they were probably wrong! Ouch.

Anyway, being serious now. I think the afterlife is simply too big for most characters to interact with in any meaningful way. Even more “out there” types could have trouble engaging with it, with all of it. Like, what, my wizard’s just gonna pop over to Ardenweald to have a fun little adventure, say hi to their dead family, and then just… go home? Tuck into bed so they’ll be up fresh and early in time for the next expansion which will, inevitably, have much, much lower stakes and a much more grounded setting??

Aaaaaahh!!!

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my biggest issue is how we go to the Realm of Death, and immediately start killing things.

Then it turns out the Shadowlands were created by Titan Group B who turns souls into Anima, to power their domain.

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My disconnect is that none of my characters are IC heroes or champions. Some of them may have had some participation in previous xpacks, but nothing that would make them stand out or be “Hero” enough to go to Shadowlands.
For the guy I RP on most of the time? He would refuse if asked to go. He knows that if he bumps into loved ones that he lost in the fire, or his wife he lost 2-3k years ago, he would be so torn about staying or returning he fears he’d go crazy.
So, my characters at least recognize the existence (or possibility of) of Oribos existing, they just have their reasons for not going. Others above have made good points. Most of my toons are legit concerned of not returning, or missing the last portal back before its all sealed up (I’m assuming the hole above ICC isn’t gonna hang there forever, considering where it leads).

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They aren’t titan group B. Both Titans and the Eternal Ones (Denathrius, Primus etc.) were created by the First Ones. These are the literal gods of the universe. My footman sure can relate to that!

This entire story turned into a Great Value brand Final Fantasy game.

Slay some dragons, fight each other.
Travel to another world to beat demons?
Help defeat a Lich King
Slay a dragon.
Civil and political unrest.
Time travel side quest
Demonic invasion.
More unrest, and an ancient evil.
TRAVEL TO THE AFTERLIFE AND KILL THE GOD OF THE DAMNED, UNLEASHER OF THE FINAL FOE AGAINST ALL LIFE AS WE KNOW IT

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Shadowlands, BfA, Legion and Warlords all had plots that practically required you be “A Hero of Azeroth!” if you wanted to do anything important. The difference was that the drought in WoD meant that RP was one of the few, constantly updated things people had. Legion was still on Azeroth and there were still demon-related plots you could come up with here or there or you could go fight on the Broken Shore and come back traumatized (etc, etc). BfA introduced two islands that had been in lore since… forever, almost. We could finally create RP threads involving Kul Tiras and just… pretend like the world wasn’t dying under our feet.

Shadowlands doesn’t really have any of those luxuries. It is contained, as WoD was, to something ‘beyond’ Azeroth. But, unlike WoD, Shadowlands is not an all-out war. Not in the way WoD was, anyway. It’s not tangible as a war. It’s more like a fight for (afterlife) survival and most of that is best left to the vague, mute hobos of Azeroth that seem to do everything for whatever the average gold value of quests are these days and something hanging in your closet.

It’s something that makes you ‘special’ regardless of what current lore would be inclined to make you believe. Most people don’t want to touch that because if you start making your character everyone’s main character… well, what’s the point in everyone else?

Besides, if you weren’t a gold hoarding hobo, learning what lies after death would probably be pretty traumatizing. Especially when coupled with the knowledge that it’s not exactly an automatic process. It can still be messed with. I’d want to avoid thinking about it too.

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and then you find out you can -die- in the Shadowlands

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lets make a comparison to something that people totally want to hear about

final fantasy fourteen, and shadowbringers. dont throw any volatile elements at me quite, yet let me explain myself.

my apologies if this comes out rambling, i got my second dose of pfizer and my brain is goo.

Shadowlands and Shadowbringers, despite the obvious similarities in the naming scheme, are very similar expansions. Coming directly after an expansion based entirely around a war on land based around two nations that have been in the lore for a long time, both Shadowlands and Shadowbringers take our heroes to another world. A world that might, at surface value, be really difficult to build a connection to.

With Shadowbringers, its the First. It’s a fractured mirror world to the Source, the realm we come from. While many things are very similar, a lot about the First is wildly different from the Source. That, and there’s some pretty high concept things at play. If you don’t beat up these Light demons, your world will basically be destroyed, and everyone you know will die.

Shadowlands, it’s the afterlife. The afterlife that moderately reflects, if not extremely reflects, our own world. Just as there are so many similarities, there are extreme differences, with an arguably equally high concept threat at play. The Lord of Death comes for the heart of our world, after all. If we don’t stop him, our world will assuredly be destroyed, and everyone you know will die.

So how come Shadowbringers is a lauded success, where Shadowlands is currently continuing the trend of Battle for Azeroth and Warlords of Draenor… in dropping the ball.

Well, to put it plainly, these ideas are not faulty on a basic level. They must be handled with extreme care, of course, but they can ultimately be some of the more compelling and emotionally driven storylines. You have an entire world to play with, with familiar friends and foes alike. The thing is, however, this is where the story of Shadowlands fails.

It gives you a new playing ground full of familiar faces, and doesn’t do much with them (yet, obviously). It also didn’t build up on this playing ground at all, with only very vague mentions of the Shadowlands throughout the years. It seemingly retreads ground that was already retread, as well, and doesn’t evolve those stories at all. Worst of all, it doesn’t spend any time in its storytelling telling you how things came to be, or what the villain’s plan might be, or even what exactly is going on.

The journey to the First is heavily foreshadowed. The characters that go with you are characters you’ve watched grow and develop consistently, and have a massive impact in the story. You are introduced properly to each group and region you find, as well as getting a proper sense of what the antagonist wants. Even though you know what the villain wants, there’s still some pretty huge twists along the way that really get you thinking. And they’re not twists that make you feel mislead, or go against everything the story’s already established.

Lastly, there’s still a connection to the world you’re fighting for. Alongside your journey on the First, there’s still things happening in the Source, things that are building up to the next expansion as well as threats in the current expansion.

Shadowbringers makes you care about an entirely new world, with entirely new characters, and does it within the base leveling experience. You don’t need to reach some absurd goalposts in the endgame to fully comprehend what’s happening. The main story is also not concluded in a raid, instead being concluded in trials and dungeons that are very easy to access, and very fun to play. That last part is wholly biased, of course, but I imagine much of this is.

I could not be more excited for Endwalker. Meanwhile, I think World of Warcraft should’ve ended in Legion.

Thanks for coming to my Sint Talk, hopefully you brought a snack and some migraine medicine.

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I think for me the thing that has made Shadowlands unappealing as a whole is how disconnected from the rest of Azeroth it feels. Even when characters from Azeroth do show their faces, they are typically following us around like a lost puppy.

It also just feels so stupid that the “maw walkers” are basically the only characters in the story. It doesn’t make sense that none of the forces of the Horde or the Alliance are present in any meaningful capacity in the Shadowlands. In the words of Thrall “The Jailers forces rival that of the Burning Legion.” When the Burning Legion invaded, literally every single character from either faction had involvement.

The Alliance and Horde had a presence on the Broken Isles, and so did basically every major order that exists in the lore. Now? It is hard to conceive of a way to involve my character in a meaningful capacity. We don’t even really have any confirmation whatsoever that non major lore characters/maw walkers/champions of azeroth/garrison commanders or what the hell ever we’re supposed to be this expansion are able to access the Shadowlands.

There are some leaks going around that the patch after 9.2 could have some evil Jailer presence on Azeroth. I hope to god that is true because then maybe, after a year and some change of this expansion being out, it would feel like the story is actually moving, and like Azeroth is actually involved in it.

To be frank, I don’t give a damn about the Shadowlands or what goes on in them, or any of the major characters Blizzard has introduced for this expansion, because I know we are going to leave and never come back in a couple of years. It’s not like the characters have any time to breathe and stand on their own anyway. They are too busy telling my random alts how special and cool and important and spectacular they are.

Anyway, I hope next expansion we see a return to Azeroth, or at least a meaningful presence of actual organizations and orders my character could possibly be involved in on whatever world we end up on next. Steve Danuser teased that we are stepping away from Horde/Alliance focused storylines to focus on a more cosmological scale. TBH, if we have another expansion where we go to the Light realm or what the hell ever, and are special nephilim’s/light walkers or whatever Blizzard dreams up next, before we move on to the next cosmological realm, I’m done, because right now the WoW story is separated from basically everything I have ever enjoyed about the WoW universe, completely, and I can’t see myself continuing to enjoy the game if the next expansion is the same.

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Danuser trying to make his own Marvel b like… makes the Shadowlands

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Welcome to the afterlife, but uh… Don’t die again this time it sticks.

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I personally love high stakes, high magic cosmic concepts! Our guild has been doing tons of events in the Shadowlands and it has been a lot of fun to see how characters develop when confronted with a threat so outside of their normal comprehension. It’s a new and alien world with different rules of existence, which is always cool.

I’m always happy to get folks an “in” to the SL or RP there, so if you see me around Stormwind, don’t hesitate to give me a poke :slight_smile:

I really liked Legion. It wasn’t perfect of course and I can get into all that but I won’t atm.

Yet from a story perspective, the Legion has always been a threat looming in the background for as long as the game has existed (WoW). It involved characters and locations and concepts we are already familiar with. A lot of people built their characters around being affected by the Legion and even if you didn’t, you might have been affected inadvertently like the undead.

In addition to this, classhalls grounded the conflict with the flunky murderhobo crews from across Azeroth. I know not all classhalls had stellar writing but the conflicts in your campaigns focused more on you and your classhall friends stopping the Legion vs a handful of soap opera lore characters.

The campaigns also took part in different parts of Azeroth to stop the Legion. Monk hall had me going to Pandaria, Rogue hall had me running around Duskwood, Shaman sent me to Deepholm. We know these places so it made the fight with the Legion actually feel like a worldwide threat.

We also knew exactly what the Legion wanted and what would happen if they won. We’d all die or become slaves or fuel for their crusade. We’ve also seen what would happen if they won with Argus and the Draenei.

With all of the above mentioned, Shadowlands introduces some new big bad we never heard of, a place only mentioned in media outside the game (as far as I’m aware) and we still don’t really know what happens if they win. Seriously, what happens???

Also did the Scourge just go home after pre-patch? Suddenly they’re a threat and we’re running around Icecrown and parts of Azeroth to stop them and then they’re gone?? Legion pre-patch we fought demons and then we kept fighting demons for the rest of the expansion and they remained a constant antagonist.

So for all we know, Azeroth is back to business as usual since the Scourge went home and only like five people went to the Shadowlands.

Comparing all that, no wonder there’s a disconnect. Even WoD you could come up with ways on how or why your character went to Draenor. Maybe you were a part of the early invasion campaign or portal’d over to be a labourer in a Garrison or help manage the Inn over in Ashran or something else. There are a number of ways you could insert yourself into WoD easily.

However I have seen people RPing in Shadowlands and making it work. I also appreciate folks like Axiann and the Mead Hall for their Scourge campaigns. So people are making it happen but I can completely understand why it’s also polarizing and difficult for individuals to engage with it. My character Juspion would totally be someone that would go to Shadowlands, not for any meaningful reason except for his own questionable research but my character Versca would be difficult because her character has always been more focused on the happenings around Azeroth.

Anyway, expansion story bad and looking forward to TBC classic so I can play ugly low res N64 Juspion lol

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My typical criteria to if my character could be involved in major world events is usually “are regular npcs there?”

This has been the case in almost every conflict in almost every expansion. Yes we’ve been the “big hero/champion of azeroth” ever since WoD. But in all of those cases, regular people were involved too.

WoD: Lots of people from both factions came along to support the main garrison and other outposts across Draenor. Laborers, soldiers, the works.

Legion: Alliance and Horde involved directly. Class orders involved directly. Regular people affiliated with either a faction or a class order could come along and be involved (the exception being the warrior class hall which was pretty much you and some shiny vrykul)

BFA: Alliance and Horde militaries heavily involved across entire expansion.

Shadowlands: One or two throwaway npcs in Oribos, some rescued faction leaders who just chill out, and you. The champion. The Maw Walker! visiting areas where no one from Azeroth follows!

There’s a marked difference, and if I wanted to I could point out how every expansion involved the average person in some way. There was accessibility to the story. Shadowlands… does not have that. I hope it gets it in further patch content, but right now it’s the story of the grand champion and the rest of us are spectators at best. It’s harder to relate to and I think a lot of RPers just build their own narrative.

Sarestha here for instance? I think she knows about the hole above Icecrown. That much is surely common knowledge by now, especially for a Death Knight. But she has not accessed it, and so she has been largely focusing on helping Forsaken refugees and dealing with Scourge remnants. My Alliance main, the void elf Ranger Fal’therin, is simply behind in Stormwind, supporting Turalyon’s regency with Alleria’s forces. They’re both grounded haha.

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