Just picking at this log from Maut.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dCFzVthfQPDHAxJa#fight=3&type=damage-done&source=12
Shreds average damage was 36.1k
Rakes direct damage was 29.5k
Not too far off already
Account for the loss of WFR in shadowlands and we’re now we’re closer to that plateau again.
Rake costs less every. Even if shred hits harder, DPE wise. Rake will pull ahead.
It’s happened before, and blizzard is very much aware of it. Even if you’re not.
Dot Ticks for 6k at ilvl473
Thats a lot of damage!!
Rake does far less than half the baseline damage of Shred, and that’s BEFORE factoring in the 20% bonus Shred gets from having a bleed on a target.
It’s a nothingburger concern, let’s move on.
Yes. You are.
Are you suggesting that you plan on refreshing rake without TF in shadowlands? Moot point.
Yes, yes he is. Subtract that damage.
You have a point with BT affecting rake. Or rather… not affecting rake in SL. That leaves room for a 25% buff to rake. After that, you run the risk of pushing that plateau.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/24#aggregate=amount
Compare windwalker to fire mage and let me know if you think this is still the case.
Your concern regarded spamming Rake over Shred, and if that were the case, it would not have 100% TF uptime, as per Shred. So not moot point, and you’re giving me easy ammo.
Happy to be wrong there, in which case looking on live with end of xpac mastery it does less than half Shred’s base damage (on my toon) before factoring in the 20% extra from bleeds.
In which case I’ve just checked on wowhead that Rake is 18% of AP whereas Shred is 46%, again before the 20% bonus.
Mega nothingburger here.
edit: he’s also using 1 blood mist, which does affect initial rake, albeit minor.
It would just mean using shred outside TF buffs. Not moot, but ridiculous none the less.
Regardless, we’re getting off track.
The math is there and blizzard is aware of it. Shred sets a limit to rake and there’s a plateau of how much base damage it can do. Just like thrash.
The math is far off, really, they could literally double rakes initial damage and maybe only then it might pull ahead with enough mastery. Just look at the AP values, and the fact BT is removed from Rake, and so forth.
Indeed let’s move back to realistic and relevant discussions about bleeds/rake etc.
My progression says otherwise.
No. Also, this isn’t very nice.
There will be a new dynamic (yet again), but perhaps there will be some way to achieve the results I want with covenant abilities, soulbinds, conduits, or legendary items. Regardless, while I can currently play entirely with the stock UI, a more complex plate-spinning build will likely force me to pick up a WeakAura to manage it.
Sure do. Fire Mage is very obviously the outlier in your graph, being something like 20% higher than the second place spec. That’s from your graph. Even if I do assume the absolute worst and compare extreme to extreme like you’re doing, WW isn’t 50% of Fire’s DPS. It’s 75%. Now that’s clearly out of line and Fire should probably be brought down. But let’s ignore the outliers for a second. The average damage in aggregate Ny’Alotha is somewhere around 90k, again from the graph you show. Is WW’s 83k really so bad compared to that? Below average yes but by definition, there will always be 50% of players that are below the average.
People always think tuning is worse than it is in this game.
You can’t compare base AP on attacks that have independent modifiers. That’s oversimplifying the topic. A black and white fallacy.
And again… I’m brining the topic up because it’s happened.
I do concedes that BT played a major factor in rakes damage. It does open up a window for rakes damage to be buffed accordingly to make up for the loss. I’m not arguing against that. I want Buffed bleeds as much as the next guy.
However. The plateau exists. That’s undeniable. It’s been hit before. Undebatable.
A work around would be to simply follow suit with a similar BT buff for rake. Any type of thrid party damage buff works.
Agreed.
Between his role playing and ad hominem, it makes debating class topics with cheesy somewhat painful.
Wait, you don’t do that already? I think you might be overreacting a tad then. You’d be surprised how important a good UI is to one’s own performance. The mechanical aspects of performing even the most complicated Feral rotation isn’t super difficult, it’s managing your focus that’s always that hard part. That’s the role of a good UI, something that guides your focus to wherever it needs to be at any given time.
Take some time, make a good UI, stop trying to fly blind and guessing at what you should be focusing on. The base Blizzard UI is absolutely horrible for this and I’ll take them to task on it every chance I get. They’ve gotten too used to letting addon creators fix stuff like this for them. Once you have a UI that works with you rather than against you I think you’ll be surprised at what you yourself are capable of managing. You clearly have the ability to shoulder the amount of burden you need to perform in Mythic raid, you can do more when you shift some of that weight to your UI.
Just gonna leave this here.
Thanks for that 
I’ve been researching this - the main reason I’ve hesitated going too addon heavy is I constantly hear other players having no end of trouble with their UI setups. “My extra action button isn’t showing up” or “Oh, that’s weird my UI isn’t showing __________”
I can start with WeakAura maybe pick up Plater. Not sure I’m ready to switch to a full UI replacement like ELVUI just yet. We’ll see.
ElvUI is overkill and I don’t think is particularly good for the task. Most people I work with just need to spend sometime making a good WeakAuras setup. I think the Dreamgrove Discord has some resources to help you make WAs for Feral bleeds that track snapshots. Back when I first started I used WAs to create an audio notification when Savage Roar needed to be refreshed because I struggled with it. I think that’s probably extreme but just get something that lets you know when your bleeds are in pandemic and tracks your TF snapshots and practice with that a bit.
Something I wrote for fun and entertainment, I even said so when I linked it in the Feral Discord. Unfortunately everyone is so boring that I have to let the thread die, not one entertaining response, and ultimate derailment by the same suspects who live on this board.
With that said, the traitors I was referring to in that refer to people like Lah, who campaign for the destruction of Feral. Who in their right mind would honestly push to keep Rip a one-time cast per encounter, completely harming the spec for everyone else and forgoing the rich history of the ability and the spec. The same people too lazy to even download an addon or weakaura, yet needs to ruin it for the rest of us?
I have no sympathy for such traitors, but since I’ve hurt his/her feelings, I will decide later whether or not I want to say more on the topic.
To be fair, I have always advocated for giving those that prefer the old play style that option AND for it to be numerically superior.
My position has been that both play styles ought to be available and viable, and CAN be with some creativity.
While I agree with Reshyk that the stock ui is somewhat lacking, a spec should not require addons to be effective. That is on Blizzard. That is why, in my opinion, feral is underrepresented.
It was neither fun nor entertaining.
Save the RP for you’re own enjoyment.
Not on the forums.
The only part that’s on Blizzard is their lousy UI, they shouldn’t water down specs though because the base UI sucks. It sounds like you’re just lazy, it’s really not hard to re-apply Rip, in the same way it’s not really hard to get a weakaura. It’s not a mandatory chore, they’re there for YOUR benefit. If you want to improve, take the steps to improve, instead of coming on here and expecting a talent that completely trivializes something.
If you want to play inferior, easy-mode talents, then you can still run MOC, SOTF etc next xpac. Or you can read some guides, watch some Feral streamers, and spend some time on a target dummy.
And might I add that the UI will not only improve your DPS, but can improve awareness and provide so much other information, e.g. party kicks or CDs, buff tracking etc etc.
Even the most basic specs benefit greatly from weakauras/addons.
Oh please Tical, you’re just salty because the traitors I was referring to include yourself. I had several mentions in Discord about people saying they enjoyed it and many likes on the post.
You on the other hand, are universally disliked here. But if you’ve noticed, there have been many of your posts I’ve liked or topics I’ve backed you up on. Unfortunately you just take everything personal, as you have today it seems.
Oh, I’m a traitor too?! Lmfao. That’s rich.
I don’t take things personal. I very much always try to keep the topic focused on the class despite countless attempts by others to discredit me or makes personal attacks. It’s exhausting really, and I just don’t care enough about peoples feeling to sugar coat the facts. Like… Not even a little bit.
But let’s be real here… that post was just one giant eye role.
If you wanna quit feral because you’re unhappy with it’s direction. Then just do it. No need for the theatrics.
Back to the rake discussion…
How’s this for an idea?
Make it stackable. Similar to guardians thrash. This keeps the base damage in check, but allows for a stacking bleed. That certainly solves your ST problems.